Beginner recording classical guitar-help!

  • Thread starter Thread starter MASTON
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MASTON

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Hi,
I'm using an AMD 400, Cakewalk, a Soundblaster 1024 and a dual channel ART preamp, and I've just got an AKG C-1000

I've had a quick guitar sesh and well, Here're my problems and questions.

-Picking (classical guitar) sounds great, but when I start strumming it gets all muddy.??

-What levels should I be aiming for in cakewalk. If I hit the orange at 75% the volume's still only about a half of the level of an MP3, unless I turn up the main sliders which increases noise and distortion.

- If I turn up the bass on the SB more than a third everything falls apart. Is that a shortcoming of the SB.

- where should I be putting the guitar in relation to the mike. low noise would be good so I figure keep it near and keep the levels down on the ART?!?

there you go. BE KIND, I'm just trying to get the best I can with what I've got. I know I'm not going to get great results, but I'm just starting out. I don't expext miracles, just passable demo quality will do 4 now.

cheers
Maston
 
Try putting the mic over your shoulder at about your ears height pointed out and angled in front of the guitar....adjust the Art as needed for level from there....

For levels, you want to get the highest possible level without hitting 0db....

I see you have a dual Art....do you have another mic....if its a consenser, put it over your other shoulder for a cool stereo effect....if its a dynamic , mic the guitar where the neck meets the body probably anywhere from 6 to 18 inches, wherever you find it to sound better.......

And thisis just my opinion...there are many ways tomic an acoustic....its a matter of finding out what works best for you...I just wouldnt try the mic close to the guitar.....
 
Actually, the whole directory at:

http://www.itrstudio.com/anonftp/

has some cool stuff on it. Drum mic setups miking guitar amps, etc, old pictures. Nothing major, just stuff that doesn't fit anywhere on my normal site.
 
Thats pretty cool.....


There you go, Maston...got your question answered, with pictures, by a frickin legend.....
 
What kind of mike is that...

pointed down at that lady's guitar, Harvey ?


Rick
 
That was no lady; that was my wife!! She doesn't even play guitar, but I wanted to show the technique. The mic is the Audix TR-40 Omni Reference small diaphragm condensor mic, my favorite for overheads and acoustic stuff. I'll also use it for various percussion stuff, too.
 
Harvey does your wife play any instruments (insert your own joke here)....Im just curious because my wife has almost no musical abilities at all...
 
She plays flute, not great, but she plays ok. She has a very neutral voice (almost Karen Carpenter-ish), and she does great for backup harmonies. I can sing her a harmony line I want, and she'll nail it first time, then I'll give her another harmony line and she'll nail that.

The pictures were a result of a lot of curiosity on r.a.p. about my over the shoulder technique for acoustic guitars (which also works great for some electrics too, by putting the mic at the guitarist's ear level and pointing it at the speakers from whereever the guitar player is standing when he says, "That's the sound I want".).

The concept is pretty simple once you start thinking about it; it consists of 3 parts, all working together:

1. An Omni mic hears a lot closer to what your ear hears, so it's more likely to give you a more accurate picture of the sound. Omnis, by nature, tend to be flatter and more accurate than the other mic patterns.

2. Placing the Omni near the player's ear give the same tonal balance the player is hearing. You don't normally listen to an electric guitar with your ear pressed against one of the speakers, or listen to an acoustic from 6" away at the neck joint. Acoustic instruments have very complex "near field radiation patterns" . ("Near-field" is anything closer than the longest dimension of the instrument's body.) When you are in the "near field", you are only hearing a part of the instrument's "radiation pattern" (i'e., highs from the bridge, bass from the sound hole, etc.).

3. Even when using any mic pattern at ear level, it will usually avoid the bass buildup from the "proximity effect" inherent in all pressure gradient mic patterns.

Keep in mind, it's not a cure-all technique. Sometimes you want that "in your face" sound AND the proximity effect (heavy metal guitars, for example, where you will jam an SM-57 right against the speaker grill cloth), or a small condensor mic near the bridge of an acoustic to get more top end.

Understanding how instruments radiate their sound, and how and when to use "near field" miking is a very important first step toward controlling the sound you're getting, and getting the sound you want.

Ok, there's the bell - class dismissed.
 
I agree totally...how many times have we gotten a great sound coming out of the amp, threw up a SM57 right on the grill and wondered why it sounded shitty on tape....Duh, put your ear right there against the grill and see why.....
 
Thanks guys,
I'll try the over the shoulder thing, but with the mike that far away, I don't think I'm gonna be getting any levels without the input and outputs near to full on the ART which'll be well noisy. The best sound I could get today was with the mic 4 inches in front of the guitar with levels set at 70%.
Anyway I'll try it and let you know later.
It seems that you need a different setup for strumming than fingerpicking. Who'd 've known that. So how do get a clear strummed sound then??


Maston
 
MASTON said:
Thanks guys,
I'll try the over the shoulder thing, but with the mike that far away, I don't think I'm gonna be getting any levels without the input and outputs near to full on the ART which'll be well noisy. The best sound I could get today was with the mic 4 inches in front of the guitar with levels set at 70%.
Anyway I'll try it and let you know later.
It seems that you need a different setup for strumming than fingerpicking. Who'd 've known that. So how do get a clear strummed sound then??
Click to expand...
Same way, but if you need more separation between the notes, try pointing the mic at the bridge,
 
Positioning the mic at the bridge would definitely get rid of the muddiness, but might sound too harsh for fingerpicking.

You may want to try dual micing. One directed at the 12th fret and one farther away for ambiance. You can then blend the mics for a good balance of tones. Experiment with directing the farther mic at the bridge, soundhole, or positioned over the shoulder as described above. Be careful of phase cancellation that may occur from using two mics.
 
Hey Harvey,
How do you think this would work with a Large Diaghram (I hate spelling that word!) Condenser? I have the Soundelux U97 and I've gotten great results with it in OMNI in front of my steel string (usually a Martin D16) into my Great River and RNC (in super-nice-and-sweet mode!). I'm going to try the over-the-shoulder thing this weekend, but I want to see if you had any thoughts on how this would work. BTW, I recorded my Martin this way, and then use my KM184 (with a pop-screen of course) on vocals at the same time. Came out pretty well with bleed between mics somewhat minimized.
Thanks alot for sticking around!
-Evan


Harvey Gerst said:
<<lot's of helpful OMNI info snipped (see Above!)>>
Click to expand...
 
gordone said:
Hey Harvey,
How do you think this would work with a Large Diaghram (I hate spelling that word!) Condenser? I have the Soundelux U97 and I've gotten great results with it in OMNI in front of my steel string (usually a Martin D16) into my Great River and RNC (in super-nice-and-sweet mode!). I'm going to try the over-the-shoulder thing this weekend, but I want to see if you had any thoughts on how this would work. BTW, I recorded my Martin this way, and then use my KM184 (with a pop-screen of course) on vocals at the same time. Came out pretty well with bleed between mics somewhat minimized.
Thanks alot for sticking around!
-Evan
Click to expand...
Yes, it works fine even with a large diaphragm condenser mic. The trick is to keep it out of the near field as much as possible so the results are more consistent. When you use a dual diaphragm mic over the shoulder in omni mode, make sure the front diaphragm is pointed straight down to pick up the slight hi end rise inherent in this design.
 
Thankyou everybody,
I'm getting a reasonable signal now. Pointing the mic at the bridge instead of the soundhole got rid of the muddiness, and strumming with my (especially grown) forefinger nail instead of the soft pad of my thumb really bumped up the definiton big time(I worked that bit out myself)
No way can I get the mic more than 6 inches away though. I asked someone who runs a local studio and he reckons that's normal for that kind of small condenser mic (AKG C-1000) and an ART pre-amp (which can get pretty noisy with the levels right up). Says you need a better mic if you want to record from a distance.
God, recording is fun.
I'm onto vocals now. Let u know how that goes.

cheers
Maston
 
Hey, just tried the over the shoulder technique with my own guitar!

I used a 603 at the neck joint, 6" away and pointing 45 degrees towards the hole with an ECM 8000 over the shoulder.

Then in Sound Forge, I used the channel converter to pan the left and right channels towards the center. (it sounded goofy panned hard)

It sounds terrific! Too bad I'm the one playing the guitar! ;-)
 
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