Beginner Mic. for singing Jazz?

[chiefraven]

Hi guys i'm looking for a decent beginner Mic for singing Jazz style music(something with a softer tone.) I want to practice and record at home. Can someone recommend a good one? Also what are some other equipments i'll need?

 

[baekgaard]

Hi guys i'm looking for a decent beginner Mic for singing Jazz style music(something with a softer tone.) I want to practice and record at home. Can someone recommend a good one? Also what are some other equipments i'll need?

Probably many mics can fit the bill, but one option would be the ADK Hamburg.

You also need a preamp, such as an M-Audio DMP3 or a SP VTB1.

And then obviously a PC/Mac with a soundcard is needed also... and some SW. And cables, etc...


-- Per.

 

[ROblows]

I havn't tried any of those new cheap Chinese ribbon mics yet, but they might work for an older, darker sound.

 

[chiefraven]

hey

what about the shure sm57? or is it too nice for a beginner mic? and what does a preamp do exactly?

 

[cpc]

i thought the sm58's were better for singing, i heard both are good though. michael jackson, mike patton, my chemical romance have all been seen using sm57's...covering many styles of music. the hit single "billie jean" was actualy recorded with an sm57. deffinitely either the sm57 or sm58 should be great for your applications...since you want to practice AND record. i've never used any myself, but i recently ordered a sm58 and i'll tell you how it works for me if you want to wait until monday or so. i think the sm57's look cooler haha, but i thought i'd go with the 58 since it has the pop filter and is more directional. i'll probably purchase an sm57 as well if i like the 58.

 

[cpc]

also..if you're not trying to build a studio and make super professional sounding recordings, i hear any small mixer with built in preamps such as a behringer ub502, ub802, yamaha 10/2, and peavey will get the job done. people on these boards will tell you to save up and buy a 300 dollar mixer and 1,000 dollar condenser mic instead, but unless you're really trying to do studio level recordings it doesnt seem necessary.

 

[chiefraven]

hi

hey thanks a lot for your reply. but would a sm57 or 58 be good for singing jazz?
also, i was wondering if you could post an audio sample of your sm 58 once you got it working? Also what are preamps for?what do they do exactly and how are they so important?

oh yeah lastly, what's a pop filter? is there a filter that would be good for jazz? and do you soundproof your room for the singing?

 

[cpc]

i've just HEARD that sm58's are better for singing in most cases, however like i said some people prefer the sm57's better depending on how they like the sound. the pop filter on the sm58 helps prevents loud P's and B's sounds or spit or air noises. a pre-amp is used to raise the signals of the mic loud enough to put through the inputs of your soundcard. a pre amp or mixer of some kind is NEEDED if you plan on doing some computer recording. other than that, you'll need a microphone cable..just an average one would seem fine, dont spend 60 dollars on a expensive high quality cable. 5-20 dollar cables should do the job. and then you just need a cord to go from the mixer to the sound card.

are you trying to build a studio type environment and make extremely high quality recordings? if so then you might want to disregard my advice because a condenser mic may be better for you then. but i got good advice in staying away from these if you are doing "bedroom" recording because condensers are more sensitive and can pick up far away sounds, computer noise, clocks, and things like that more so than dynamics like the sm57/58 which only really pick up sounds 3-6 inches away from it. also condensers usually dont make the best live or practicing mic's for vocalist. the shures are better multipurpose mics.

 

[chiefraven]

thanks man

well besides from the fact that condenser mics pick up noises from far away and tend to be more sensitive. Are condenser mics better than dynamic and gives a clearer sound than the dynamic? Or are they just used for different purposes? For example, the dynamics like the sm57 and 58 are used for just singing and picking up the vocals from the singer whereas the condenser is used to used to pick up noises from everything in the studio... the vocals, guitar, bass, drums all at the same time?

What i want to do is to set up a little nice environment in my own room so i can practice jazz vocals and recording them (not on a professional level of course.) Have you been practicing vocals for a while? if so could you tell me a little about your experience and maybe give me some tips?

what type of vocals do you do and for what type of music?

 

[cpc]

condensers in general do provide better sounding clearer vocals. they arent usually used to pick up sounds in a room by many people at a time like you mentioned. they are usually used for vocalists just like a dynamic, and only one vocalist at a time...thats why unless you have descent set up its bad that condensers are so sensitive pick up other noises. if the phone rings or something your recording is ruined. not to mention the constant computer noise it will be picking up. if you can have a descent set up away from noise then generally people will recomend a condenser of some sort, as even the cheapest ones usually have better sound than a dynamic. but again that comes down to personaly preferance..some people still like the sound of shure s sm57 and 58 over condensers, and once again can be used for practicing and live as well.

ive only been practicing vocals for 2 years or so, im only 18 and realized about 2-4 years ago that music and singing is what i love and want to be a huge part of my life. ive been in 1 slow rock band and close to joining a new hard rock band. im starting voice lessons next week too to try to help a bit and get a professionals views on things. other than that im just getting into computer recording as well. ive been recording a couple things straight into the standard 5 dollar cheap microphone that came with my computer and found its deffinitely time for an upgrade haha. i've used various cheap dynamics as well as a shure sm58 a couple times but not extensively therefor i dont really know TOO much first hand other than what i've heard from people. i like alot of music though and i enjoy singing any kind of music pretty much. some of my favorite bands and influences are mr bungle (some jazz in there) faith no more and incubus.

 

[cpc]

since im so inexperienced myself it probably wouldnt hurt to wait for replies from some more experienced people as well, but since they're so experienced they'll usually recomend things out of your price range or tooo high tech for you to understand how to use quite yet. ive done alot of research on this so i have basic knowledge before diving in, you can get alot of useful info and articles simply by searching on google or going here

http://www.hr-faq.org or
http://theprojectstudiohandbook.com/directory.htm

 

[chiefraven]

.

thank you so much man. you've been a great help. I can't wait to get enough money together to get some decent equipment and start practicing. By the way, you should check out this artist: Eva Cassidy, she is an amazing singer. I'm sure you will like it. She's not rock or metal though. Hope you enjoy it. Are you also thinking about soundproofing your room at all?

 

[baekgaard]

since im so inexperienced myself it probably wouldnt hurt to wait for replies from some more experienced people as well, but since they're so experienced they'll usually recomend things out of your price range or tooo high tech for you to understand how to use quite yet.

Huh?

I think people here are generally rather friendly and helpful, and really try to understand the questions and help explain. None of os tries to sell anything; we're just sharing our hard earned learnings And many of us are trying to get the most value from our budget gear -- even the things we later regret we bought...

Anyway, the SM57 or SM58, it is one option. If you search here, it is has actually been discussed to death even during the last 24h in other threads. Some people like it, some don't. I have one and mainly use it for live/PA uses. There are alternative mics that will also give you the top end that is totally missing with the SM57/SM58.

As for picking up less sound, that is correct, due to the narrow pickup pattern and rather low sensitivity. It is not true that it only picks up sounds 3-6 inches from it; no microphone can do that. If a phone next to you rings, it will be heard also with a SM57/58. But due to the pickup pattern, it will record less room noises and ambience.

As for preamps, which are needed for amplifying the signal from the low levels of the mic to the levels needed by your PC and possibly provide phantom power to the mics that need it (most condensor mics), I don't see the point in getting a crappy mixer for maybe 75 USD if you can get a _much_ better preamp for 100 USD that has lots of clean gain and makes your microphones sound better. But if you have other needs for a mixer, you may look for a Soundcraft one.

Alternatively you can get an audio interface with a built-in preamp and phantom power. The quality of that will be as good as a cheap mixer.

If you want to just record "for the fun of it", get one of those and a SM57. Or get a SP B1, which is close to the SM57 in price. Both are useful, although they may not give you the "smooth jazz sound" I think you were asking about. If you can afford more, a dedicated preamp, such as the SP VTB1 or MAudio DMP3, will improve the quality of your recordings with both mics.

Next step up could be e.g. the ADK Hamburger I mentioned above. It will also allow you to record much more than just your voice, such a guitars and even a small group of singers in a nice room. And it may sound more like what you're asking for. But then you should really have e.g. one of those preamps I listed above.

Also, you should really try to read the big, sticky mic thread at the top of the forum. It will explain to you a lot of the concepts and differences between mics.

Hope this helps?


-- Per.

 

[wilkee]

If you intend to record onto PC Then to get you started

Mic. Behringer C1

Pre. Behringer MIC100 or a small Yam or Berry mixer if you want some decent monitoring options

Soundcard EMU1212M or Audiophile 2496 if you are happy with non-balanced connections.

The mic and pre are perfectly suitable for you to learn the art of recording and you can then either upgrade as you see fit or get fed up and flog the whole lot and know you have not wasted shed-loads.

Tony

p.s. the C1 has not been released in the USA yet so we can expect loads of views about how shit they sound.

 

[bigwillz24]

Know the differance between a sm57 and a sm58?

Nothing but the windsreen...

 

[cpc]

i was saying he should listen to other more experienced people on this board to hear other opinions because you DO like to help...just not to be suckered into buying a bunch of expensive equipment he doesnt need yet. from what i hear the small mixers do just fine.

and by picking up 6 inches away i guess i should have made myself more clear...it picks up best from up to that far away. if the phone rings from the other end of your house it wont ruin your recordings the way a condenser might.

the thing that drew me away from tube pre amps from what i read, is they tend to add even more 'warmth' , or 'colouring' to your natural voice. this could be good in alot of cases but could also be bad, especially since i want my voice to sound as natural as possible in my recordings at this level. with a cheap mixer you could experiment a bit more to raise trebel/bass, etc and see what you like and dont like about your voice, then maybe go to a stand alone pre amp of some sort from there...thats the way i see it anyways.

 

[baekgaard]

from what i hear the small mixers do just fine.

I've used a bunch of these, and also have one myself (SoundCraft). In fact, I use at least one of several different smaller mixers every week for PA, and can compare them to both larger mixers (Allan and Heath, e.g.) and to dedicated preamps.

Compared to e.g. a DMP-3 (which is in the same price range) or maybe a Rane MS-1B, they are 1) much more noisy and offer less clean gain, 2) they tend to easily distort because of lacking headroom, or 3) sometimes make the sound "crack up" if you're not very careful about getting the right working levels with input gain vs. fader leves 4) the EQ's are often next to unusable because they have too much regulation gain and introduces different kinds of easily discernable distortion and phase noise, 5) the faders and pots tend to start being noisy after a couple of years of use, and 6) they don't last a long time when used heavily (connectors break and start cracking, ...).

Other than that, they're fine

In my setting, I also see several less experienced people try to run the PA. It is often quite difficult for them to get a good sound out of such a system, because of the problems mentioned above. If you know how to work it, you can get reasonable results -- but as a learning tool, I'm not so sure...

Why you would want to invest 50-75 USD in a crappy mixer instead of spending just a _little_ more and get a nicer preamp is a bit beyond me -- unless you really need the functionality of a mixer. And the better mixers are as "expensive" as some of the preamps, so there is no real saving here.

I know it can sound a bit harsh, but really -- I personally didn't learn how to work the EQs before I got upgraded to better equipment and learned how things were actually supposed to work. But that may of course just be me.

Said by someone who started out with a mixer Didn't know better, and needed it for other purposes also (live use).

and by picking up 6 inches away i guess i should have made myself more clear...it picks up best from up to that far away. if the phone rings from the other end of your house it wont ruin your recordings the way a condenser might.

Mainly because of the more narrow pickup pattern. If the mics are pointed in the same direction of the phone and set to the same levels, you will hear the phone equally well in both mics -- unless the preamp/mixer has a higher noise level for the SM57 because of the lack of clean gain, so the phone drowns in the noise floor

the thing that drew me away from tube pre amps from what i read, is they tend to add even more 'warmth' , or 'colouring' to your natural voice.

Yes -- better start out with clean equipment (DMP3). Although the VTB1 can also sound reasonably clean. But most (if not all) cheaper "toob" equipment has this problem you mention.

Still just trying to help.

Peace,


-- Per.

 

[cpc]

i understand you're trying to help, but what i ask myself when helping is does he need a more expensive mixer or dedicated pre amp, and is he willing to spend that much money to do so? i myself wasnt at this stage...and unless the cheap mixer sounds incredibly bad (people have told me it does just fine and not to worry) i probably wont for a while. but this whole topic now that im into it more really does seem hard to discuss unless you've had experience. until you use various mics and equipment you're not gona know exactly what you want or need. thats why im starting out cheap and i believe it would be fine for others just getting started to do so too. plus, if the 150 dollars for the shure mic and mixer dont pan out...at least he's got a shure mic in his collection which can never be a bad thing.

personally i got stuck up trying to find out what i need and want before i can possibly know, so i just went out on a limb and bought simple proven things. it may not be the BEST but at least it will get the job done for now. if the 50 dollar mixer doesnt fit your needs and decide you want a high quality mixer, at least you've got somethin to use until you have enough money to buy one.

 

[baekgaard]

Just to put things in perspective:

We're discussing in the range of 150 up to 200 USD for all of the solutions discussed so far (except for the ADK Hamburg, which will add another 100 USD).

So the question is if you think it may be worth using another 50 USD -- on top of the assumed 1000 USD you have invested in a PC, and the 100-150 USD still to be spent on a soundcard and 100-500 USD in needed software...

Anyway, I would repeat that if you get a soundcard with built-in preamp you can totally forget the mixer/preamp, if you're really into lowest cost. You can then get a preamp later, or use more money on a mic, if you want to.


-- Per.

 

[baekgaard]

so i just went out on a limb and bought simple proven things.

Forgot to add this: The SM57/58 can be said to be simple and proven, agreed.

Not so for the cheaper mixers that have been discussed... The value of these are very much debated.


-- Per.