Been working hard but would like opinions

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rprnj

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Hey guys, I've been working on the songs I posted here a couple weeks ago. I've taken the advice given to me, and its helped a lot. I think they've come a long way, but to me I feel like there's still something missing. I'm not really sure though. I feel like the way the vocals sit in the mix is the problem, but I've done just about everything I know how to do to sit them right. Or maybe that's not the problem? Opinions needed/welcomed.

They're here at this link...

http://www.reverbnation.com/tunepak/3055587
 
I didn't hear the originals, but it might be helpful if you could give some idea what kind of processing is used on your vocals and the instruments. It might shed some light on why the vocals sound tucked in behind the instruments. Part of it is that the accompanying instruments are just too loud, but I think there may be more.
 
The original mixes were bland - Drums up the middle, not dynamic, muddy, etc

What I'm gonna do is type both the processing on the vocals and my reasoning for why, and maybe someone can see what I'm doing wrong. Here we go.

Step 1 - Before I record vocals, I mix my tracks for tone, space, and dynamics.

Step 2 - Recording vocals (this may be really where the problem stems from). My voice can get very 'boomy' and as hard as I try to work the mic, I just can't get an even vocal. The takes actually sound great on their own (minus the dynamics problem). I'm recording at a loud enough volume and standing a good bit away from the mic and very aware of proximity effect. edit - I should clarify that there's no peaking, they're not a mess or anything. There's just parts that need to be tamed.

Step 3 - Okay, so the whole concept is that you want the vocals to sit right in front of you, clear enough to hear every word, with no words jumping out, no? I high pass out some low end, removing the muddiness, and helping to separate the vocals to sit on top. I then compress. This is where I really struggle to find the balance between the necessity of keeping the vocals smooth and compressing the living daylights out of it and therefore losing any real flavor to the vocals.

I try to gradually work things up between ratio, threshhold, and fader level searching for that g-spot.

I use reverb both as a sort of table that the vocals sit on overtop the mix and to try to take some of the edge of the vocals off in lieu of over-compressing.

I used an exciter for the first time on vocals on these recordings and was pleased with the results.

For the other instruments I try going as basic as possible. There's some very light compression on the guitars, a little more on the bass. Drums are mostly gated, maybe some compression. There is some light snare reverb on one of the tunes.

Where it comes to putting it all together, I close my eyes and listen to make sure each instrument a) Has space b) Is loud enough that it can be distinguished but not dominating. I'm really going for the 'whole' sound - not just the parts (if that makes any sense).
 
rprnj said:
...I'm recording at a loud enough volume and standing a good bit away from the mic and very aware of proximity effect...
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I think this may be your problem. When you stand far from the mic, it sounds like you're standing far from the mic. When I record guitars and I want them to sit behind the vocals, I'll sometimes put the mics 4 feet away. This gives you more of the room and makes it sound more distant. You don't want that with vocals. I'd get close to the mic, and use EQ if you need it to get rid of any low end proximity effect, or get a different mic that suits your voice better. What mic are you using for vocals?
 
I am not noticing any really bad proximity effects at all.

It's not just distance, it's also angle to the mic. Try tilting your mic toward the ground a bit and see how close you can get.

Also, you have very distracting backing tracks, with lots of busy wah and buzzy synth noises.

If sorting out the vocals is your study right now, take your sweetest melody, give it a simple "straight up" guitar backing, and work on the proximity and angle.

And remember, your best vocal sound may not be the most technically correct.
 
guitar zero said:
I think this may be your problem. When you stand far from the mic, it sounds like you're standing far from the mic. When I record guitars and I want them to sit behind the vocals, I'll sometimes put the mics 4 feet away. This gives you more of the room and makes it sound more distant. You don't want that with vocals. I'd get close to the mic, and use EQ if you need it to get rid of any low end proximity effect, or get a different mic that suits your voice better. What mic are you using for vocals?
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Right right, I get what you're saying. I stand about a foot away. If I stand any closer than that I end up having to take a good bit off of the vocal take.

I used a Beta 58a to record these vocals in about a 5'x2' closet lined with blankets.
 
Tobe said:
I am not noticing any really bad proximity effects at all.

It's not just distance, it's also angle to the mic. Try tilting your mic toward the ground a bit and see how close you can get.

Also, you have very distracting backing tracks, with lots of busy wah and buzzy synth noises.

If sorting out the vocals is your study right now, take your sweetest melody, give it a simple "straight up" guitar backing, and work on the proximity and angle.

And remember, your best vocal sound may not be the most technically correct.
Click to expand...

Hmm good call, I'll give that a try.

I've always been a live guy and therefore would generally eat the mic. However I had assumed in the studio setting that I'd want to take a step back to AVOID proximity (once again b.c of boominees). Is the name of the game, though, to actually get proximity and just eq some out?

In regards to your last point sometimes that's a tough thing to remember :P but you're right.
 
rprnj said:
Right right, I get what you're saying. I stand about a foot away. If I stand any closer than that I end up having to take a good bit off of the vocal take.

I used a Beta 58a to record these vocals in about a 5'x2' closet lined with blankets.
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The "vocal booth" may be part of the problem too. I don't know of too many people who record their vocals in a booth. Much more likely to get a good sound in a large room. You can always hang the blankets behind the mic. IMO bigger room = better recording sound.

Also, the beta 58 is a good live mic. Not so sure it's that good of a studio mic. The nice thing about that mic on stage is you don't have to swallow it for it to pick up your vocal. A nice LDC would be my first choice when recording vocals.
 
Hmm, really? The reason why I decided to do that was because I thought having the driest signal in would be best. You very well may be right though.

I'll tell ya what, I recorded vocals last night on a SM57 - man a world a difference. I think the beta 58 was what was holding things up a bit. I noticed the difference instantly...there's a general uniformity in the new vocal track than before. They're just smoother, and not jumpin' all over the place. I think this helps my mix from the top down. I'm gonna get working on it and hopefully have the new mixes up in a day or two.
 
rprnj said:
Hmm, really? The reason why I decided to do that was because I thought having the driest signal in would be best. You very well may be right though.

I'll tell ya what, I recorded vocals last night on a SM57 - man a world a difference. I think the beta 58 was what was holding things up a bit. I noticed the difference instantly...there's a general uniformity in the new vocal track than before. They're just smoother, and not jumpin' all over the place. I think this helps my mix from the top down. I'm gonna get working on it and hopefully have the new mixes up in a day or two.
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Glad to hear it. Yes sm57 is better studio vocal mic. Still think you could do way better, but you could do worse too. Will watch for the re-mix.
 
I liked the song. I really liked the guitar parts. The one on the right with the "wah" stuff going on was cool.

I didn't hear any proximity effect on the vocals. In fact, I thought they were a little on the thin side if anything.

Bass is a bit uneven in volume. Almost disappears in some spots and then is quite loud in other.

Drum programming is a little weird in spots.

Guitars, especially the one on the left, were a little brittle sounding. Nothing too bad, I'd just prefer a little more full sound.
 
I haven't read any of the other posts so I may be repeating.

I think you could use something down the middle. Acoustic guitar, keys?
You could ghost the vocal track to get a wider feel.
(Take the vocal track and copy it to another track, then offset the copied track just a tiny pinch and pan it. Don't offset it too far or it will be like a reverb or delay. )

If you layed down an acoustic guitar track, you could do a ghost on it as well and pan the original L and the ghost R to add thickness.

BTW.....Nice tunes you got!
 
I agree with r4m--nice tunes you got.

I know you're looking for constructive criticism (that's the point of this place, right?) but it looks like you're getting plenty of ideas from folks already. Besides, I'm not in a constructive criticism mood--I'm in a listening-to-music mood. And I just enjoyed listening to yours.

So be encouraged and keep honing the recording craft. Your songs are worth recording--and that's the most important thing to start with.
 
Hey everyone, thanks for all the kind words and suggestions. I really appreciate it!!

robgreen - thank you! I was unfamiliar with it, but yeah I definitely hear it. Definitely similar concepts involved.

guitar zero - you've been great so far man. I agree with you about doing better on the mic, but as for now, its going to have to stay that way :P

TripleM - Thanks man. I hear ya about the vocals being on the thin side, however, for this mix, the only way to get the vocals to stand out as much as possible was to really cut the low end. I have new vocals tracks and that should address that problem. I'll go back and check the bass. A little extra compression should help, no? I know exactly what you're talking about in regards to the guitars. I wanted to clear out some room for the vocals (once again the new takes should help). I was also listening to some early Beatles (Beatles for Sale specifically) searching for ideas on how to get those vocals out, and was really surprised to find the electric was on the thin side. So I said what the hell and gave it a shot. As a guitarist first and foremost, I'd prefer to have a nice full guitar, but this mix just didn't allow for it. Most importantly though, I'm curious about the drumming being weird. Could you be more specific? Thanks again!

r4m - Always makes me smile when someone likes the music :) I would definitely like to incorporate some keys. All I really have though is a casio keyboard with midi out. I do happen to have a sound blaster (with front panel that has midi in/out, but for some reason the front panel no longer works. I wanted to have some acoustic in there as well, but I was worried that if I did it would just be too much and I'd end up with this muddy mess of too many things happening.

Whitestrat - Hey man, hearing that you enjoyed it is good enough for me. Thanks bud, that last statement resonated quite nicely with me :)
 
rprnj said:
TripleM - ... Most importantly though, I'm curious about the drumming being weird. Could you be more specific? Thanks again!
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Sure, I should have been more specific to begin with. I think you posted several songs - I listened to Blue. There was a section from about :33 - :39 where I thought it was weird. In my head I was thinking, "Was it supposed to be like that?" I still have the tune on my machine, so I can cut out the snippet and put it up here if you want.
 
TripleM said:
Sure, I should have been more specific to begin with. I think you posted several songs - I listened to Blue. There was a section from about :33 - :39 where I thought it was weird. In my head I was thinking, "Was it supposed to be like that?" I still have the tune on my machine, so I can cut out the snippet and put it up here if you want.
Click to expand...

Is it the (I guess you can call it) B part? Was it choppy? After I replied asking where you were talking about I did a little detective work. I wasn't aware that Reaper adds a small fade in the start and end of clips. I spent about 50 hours last night removing the fades in all 3 songs.

I don't know if that's what you were referring to but I have to assume that it is.
 
rprnj said:
Is it the (I guess you can call it) B part? Was it choppy? After I replied asking where you were talking about I did a little detective work. I wasn't aware that Reaper adds a small fade in the start and end of clips. I spent about 50 hours last night removing the fades in all 3 songs.

I don't know if that's what you were referring to but I have to assume that it is.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing. Here is the snippit I was talking about.
 
TripleM said:
I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing. Here is the snippit I was talking about.
Click to expand...

Yes sir, same thing. Like I said, I had no idea reaper did that. The concept I guess is that its done to remove pops between tracks? Useful when you need it, but talk about a pain in the effin' ass to go back and take those fades away.

...not fade away...
 
Hey guys, I've just finished up the "final" mixes of the 3 songs I posted earlier. My goal was to come up with mixes I was proud of enough to go promote myself with while I work on my new stuff, and I feel like I did just that. These might not be 110% according to Hoyle perfect, however I'm happy with the product of my labors and really feel like its time to move onto my new stuff.

I hope you enjoy!!

Here's the new URL http://www.reverbnation.com/tunepak/3062193 or you can head to my website.
 
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