bassamp question.. is one 15" enough..?

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drpfeffer

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Hi i am looking for a bassamp, to play with my newly bought used Fender Jazz bass special, i'm playing in a band, that plays plays from acoustic guitar folkrock to 70's rock with a bit harder/louder sound (2 guitarist playing through a 100w 4x12 valvestack and a 2x12 100w combo..)

Currently i'm looking into a cheap Marshall 72115 combo for a good price. It's 200w with one 15" speaker.

But is that enough power..? 200w and one 15", the amp is going to be used in the rehearsal room and smaller bars/cafe's..
 
Congrats on buying a Jazz.

Well, if the guitarists crank those bad boys up much past about 3 or 4, your 200W bass amp will have about as much effect as a fart in a thunderstorm. But if they do that in a small bar or cafe they'll also deafen the clientele ;)

Rule of thumb is that bass wattage should be 3 times the guitars, because low frequencies take vastly more energy. And a 100W guitar amp at full volume is insanely loud. Realistically, for most of us, sensible rehearsal and small gig volumes are governed by the one thing you can't change - the sound coming from an acoustic drum kit. You'd do well to think around 400W to enable you to balance that comfortably, with headroom. Also, 1x15 is a debatable speaker choice, particularly for a Jazz, which doesn't have a huge bottom end. A 2x10 in addition would give you much more clarity and punch, and some will argue that two 2x10's are better than a 1x15 plus 2x10 combination. (I played my Jazz through an Eden 4x8 at a gig recently and the sound was fantastic.)

Good luck, and invest in some earplugs if the guitarists like to crank up, or you WILL damage your hearing.
 
Garry Sharp said:
Good luck, and invest in some earplugs if the guitarists like to crank up, or you WILL damage your hearing.

Huh......?
 
Garry Sharp said:
Rule of thumb is that bass wattage should be 3 times the guitars, because low frequencies take vastly more energy

Yup. I use 1200 watts and that is ok, but I would be happier with more. As far as 1 15" being enough.....no. It's not. It may be ok for low volume rehersals, but I would suggest you get a couple 4-10 cabs or a 2-15 and 4-10, or something like that. It depends on your tone. But honestly...it is better to have a boatload of power, even if you might never use it. You will at least be prepared for anything.
 
Also note that a solid state head will be quieter watt-for-watt when compared to a tube head.

The old Ampeg SVT's are, what, 300 watts? My old bassist had a newer SVT and switched to a solid state Gallien Kruger 2000RB (1000w) and they were both pretty damn loud, its just that the GK was 30lbs and was maintenance free... the SVT was 90lbs and was stuffed with tubes. :)
 
The guitarists are never playing "full speed" and or drummer is not the loudest I've heard or played with, actually we got a fairly decent db level during rehearsing..

thanks a lot for the replies.. I think I'll be looking for another solution for my new amp.. I'll probably go for 4x10" with a 3-400 watt head, as there are a lot of these types used on the market where i live..

Ideally a 2x10" combo with an extra 2x10" cab I think..
 
do you have a monitor set up ??

I use 0 watts when i play. NO amp. just a sansamp bass driver throught the mains, and a little piped in through the monitor system.

just a thought. i got into that watt war too, and all i ended up with was a 1000watt, $1500 personal monitor, that the sound guy never miced or even use the DI out of the head. he always used his own plain DI. Now i have total control over my sound(to a point) that the audience hears and use the stage monitor set up to hear myself on stage.

yep
 
drpfeffer said:
The guitarists are never playing "full speed" and or drummer is not the loudest I've heard or played with, actually we got a fairly decent db level during rehearsing..

thanks a lot for the replies.. I think I'll be looking for another solution for my new amp.. I'll probably go for 4x10" with a 3-400 watt head, as there are a lot of these types used on the market where i live..

Ideally a 2x10" combo with an extra 2x10" cab I think..

Consider the Carvin RC210-18. I did three years ago and got everything I needed - a 600watt 2x10" combo for rehearsals and an 18" driver cab for gigs. You'll love it! :D
 
I played a very similar setup for many years. I played a 1966 Fender Jazz into a 120 watt Yamaha head through a single 15". We even played material that was very similar to what you are describing. That setup sounded fine. In fact, I met quite a few bass players who praised my sound. I had the volume on about 8 or 9 and the "tube distortion" knob on about 6 or 7. Pretty distorted. And, headroom? What headroom? The head was basically running flat out. Remember that you only need to worry about having a lot of headroom if you are wanting to play clean. No amp cracked to the max has any headroom. So what? It worked fine. Had a very "old school" sound, which was perfect for the classic rock stuff we were doing. If you were going for a cleaner sound, then you would want more power to give you more headroom. But a single 15" with a 200 watt head should do FINE for the kind of clubs you've described and the type of material you're doing.

There are a lot of myths being propagated here. First of all, the old claim that "tube watts sound louder than transistor watts is just plain false. A watt is a watt is a watt. Repeat it to yourself until it sinks in.

As for the claim that bass players need three to four times the wattage as the guitar players, well, this is sorta kinda true, but only as a VERY rough rule of thumb, not a hard and fast rule. There are simply too many important variables that come into play when it comes to how loud a particular amp actually sounds for that to be of much use. We've already discussed that it matters if you're going for a "clean" tone or one that is heavily overdriven. But there are many other factors, too. For one thing, the tonal characteristics of the amp will have a BIG influence on how loud it sounds. An amp that has a lot of midrange will sound louder, all other things being equal, than an amp that produces the same volume on a db meter, but has a more even frequency response. Look up the "Fletcher Munson Curve" for more information on this phenomenon. Also, the amount of distortion present in a signal will alter how loud it appears to be. If you are a sound man at a big arena and you solo the piano (which, we will assume is being run through a super clean preamp) and set the level to a certain level using a decibel meter, and then solo the lead guitar and bring it up to the same level on the meter, the guitar will SOUND much louder to you, although the meter will read the same. There is another psychoacoustic phenomenon at work here. The human ear simply interprets distortion as meaning "this is loud."

But by FAR the most important factor in the loudness of a particular amp is the efficiency rating of the speakers. Remember that doubling your amplification power only gives you about 3 db increase in volume. That means that, (again, if all other factors are equal) an amplifier with 200 watts into a speaker cabinet rated at 103 db efficiency will sound as loud as a 400 watt amp into a cabinet with a 100 db efficiency rating. And there can be much more than 3 db difference in speaker cabinets!

We would really be better off if we just dropped the whole notion of thinking that we can tell how loud an instrument amp can be just by quoting the wattage. There are just too many variables at work in instrument amplifier design for this to be valid. It's not like with power amps, where the frequency response (flat) and the distortion ratings (minimal) are held relatively constant. In THAT situation, wattage does have some practical meaning. But it's a very different situation when describing instrument amplifiers. There are just too many OTHER factors at work for it to be very meaningful.

If you have decided to go with a 300-400 watt amp instead of the 200 watt amp that you've got your eye on, simply because of the posts that you've read hear, then I'm afraid that you've been misled my friend. Remember that going from 200 to 400 watts will only result in 3db increase in volume, even if everything else is the same. (And they won't be, of course.) That is too insignificant an increase to mean anything in practical terms. It would mean the difference of about one or maybe one-half notches on the volume knob. (i.e. If we're going to say that the 200 watt amp goes to "10," then the 400 watt amp goes to about 10 1/2 or 11.) If you want to double the volume level, you would need TEN TIMES the power to accomplish this.

Bottom line - if you like that amp you've found, and you like the tone it gives you, then buy it and don't look back. As has been pointed out here, already, your guitar players may have MORE amplification than they need for the small clubs and cafe gigs that you're playing. (Although, we don't know for sure, based simply upon wattage and speaker configuration.) Fortunately, it sounds like you have guitar players who don't get too crazy with the volume levels. So, you should be fine. And if they DO play too loud for the gigs, then the optimal solution is NOT to get into a wattage arms race with your guitarists. The correct solution is to turn towards the offending guitarist and say, "Hey, dummy! Turn down your @#&%# amp!" (Remember to use your most diplomatic voice. Music is all about communicating with your fellow musicians.) ;)
 
wow. i have a 100w head and play fast chaotic hardcore music and my bassists 4x10 with a 300w head is more than loud enough to absolutely destroy the guitar and drums
 
Try out the Ashdown combos

Can't say I've personally played through one, but one of my friends got one in a 2x10 and it impressed me. I checked out the pricing just cuz the internet is so cool and the 4x10 version was like $600 out of Music123.com.
 
For the venues you mentioned, it should be fine, providing the amp sounds good to you, and the guitarists aren`t overloading the stage with volume.
 
thanks a lot for the replies guys, especially bassman brad for taking the time to write a really good comment..

I'm still not sure how much power i need.. but i think that i will probably first try out a 300w/4x10 in a shop and then go to the guy that are selling the amp that i was originally going for, and then decide for myself, and feel the difference..
 
I had 2x15 and a 200 watt head and sometimes, to tell you the truth, it was not loud enough. BUT...if you stand in the line of fire about 15 or so feet out in front of it, it's loud enough. Up close, the speaker's don't focus the sound there - you have to be further out...otheriwise you'll keep turning your amp up and up and up...

1x15 is a start. Better to get a head and separate 15 cab, that way you can mix and match parts when you upgrade or they fail on you.

LL
 
My bass player uses an old trace-elliot ~130w head into an Ampeg 4x10". He's the one we have to tell to turn down.
 
I am a guitarist, not a bass player, but I played with a bass player that had a hartke 350 watt head and a hartke 4x10 cab, and I was impressed at the sound (for metal). It hit real hard and heavy, and sounded pretty tight. I also had occasion to hear hartke's 650 watt head on an 8x10 cab, and it was awesome and thunderous. I was impressed enough to think to myself that if I ever get a bass rig, I want to get that kind of sound.
 
It DOES have a lot to do with tone and what music you play. I forget to mention that sometimes.... :p . I play mostly de-tuned (C or lower) loud heavy music, so anything under, say, 500 watts has no chance of being heard unless you drop all the low mids to low end. But then it will sound crappy anyway. Standard tuning changes the fundamental tone, so a bass doesn't need so much power.

Even though I'm young, energetic, and full of fresh, new ideas, I have to agree with the old decrepit "vintage" farts about volume wars. If your guitar players are so damn loud that they drown out everything else, they gotta turn down. Even if their ego's don't like it. IMO, the drums should dictate everyone's volume settings and everyone should mix themselves into the live sound as evenly as possible. If members are fighting for volume, no one wins. You gotta get a good sound as a group FIRST...THEN you will sound good loud.

So...., IMO...., if you have enough volume to mix with drums and sound good, you don't need any more power than you've got. Everyone else just needs to mix themselves in properly.
 
For the music style you mention, a good amp with a 15 is probably enough. We play similar music and have used a Hardke 12 tilt back with good results.

For loud metal bands, it might be another story, but it does not sound like that is your bag.

My grandson has a Behringer BX1200, which sounds really good, cost about $200, and is quite loud. Many other firms make similar compact bass rigs that can work well for smaller venues.

Ed
 
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