Bass Trombone Info Needed

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic thread, but this info is going towards a project that will be quite on-topic when it's done...

I'm in need of some specific information regarding the bass trombone. Specifically I need to confirm it's fundamental note range (i.e. is it B2 to G4?) and it's overblown note capabilities.

And, yes, I spent plenty of time searching with Google, Teoma, Ask and Alta Vista. I found information that's close - a couple of weak frequency charts and a numeric frequency range listing - but the info is somewhat contradictory and therefore not fully trustworthy.

Any of you classical or synth folks that can provide this info would be much appreciated.

G.

 

[bennychico11]

I've never played bass trombone...but I played bari sax and a lot of times doubled the bass trombone part in jazz bands. However I do write for bass bone from time to time. But I'm no expert

I typically never write much below E2....keeping it around the same lower range the tenor trombone plays. Bass bone is similar to the tenor trombone except it sounds stronger lower...and depending on the design, may contain valves to help drop it lower.
When writing multiple trombone parts (bass with tenors), I'll just put the bass trombone usually on the root or lowest note of the inversion and the tenors on a harmony/melody note.
Although the bass trombone can go lower than E2 (Finale says F1 for an advanced player while Wikipedia says as low as C1, although I know how much you like Wikipedia )...I find the bass trombone starts to sound really muddy down around there which is why I leave E2 as the lowest I generally put it.

As far as an upper limit...I think it just depends on the player. I'm not sure there is really a set standard (as is true with a lot of wind instruments). If you're writing for trombone, I'd say just keep it around the bass clef area as that tends to be the good meaty sound of the instrument. As with all winds, there are "good" parts to their range and "bad" parts. However, Finale says Bb4 is the upper range.


I had a great trumpet player (who played for Stan Kenton) tell me once last year when I wrote 'optional 8va' on his music, "Ben, you don't need to write that...trumpet players are going to try and take it up an octave anyway. We have big egos."
I'm guessing that goes true for all brass players.


HTH

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Although the bass trombone can go lower than E2 (Finale says F1 for an advanced player while Wikipedia says as low as C1, although I know how much you like Wikipedia )...I find the bass trombone starts to sound really muddy down around there which is why I leave E2 as the lowest I generally put it.

This is just the kind of ambiguity I've been coming across. Interestingly enough, my "best estimate" so far of B2 of the low end falls right in-between your "practical writing limit" of E2 and Finale's F1. And here's yet another anti-Wiki arrow in my quivver; C1 is so ridiculously far lower than any other frequency graph or listed frequency range for any bone, and actually rivals the low end of the tuba and contrabassoon. C1 is down somewhere around 32Hz, for goodness sake. Once again, I gotta put the Wiki info in the "questionable" category at best .

As far as an upper limit...I think it just depends on the player.

Well, I'm looking for info on three different upper limits.

The upper fundamental of the instrument itself (shortest resonant air path) I would think should be fairly constant with minor variations based upon exact instrument dimensions, wouldn't it?

One would - I would think - be able to say somthing similar about the overtones (the second upper limit). While there are probably harmonics that march all the way up the scale if one measures low enough, the majority timbre of the instruemnt can usually be considered as being to or around a certain range.

Overblow, OTOH, is very much player dependant; and there I'm expecting a much looser definition. For example, what I have for tenor bone:

Fundamentals E2 to C5 (82-520Hz); Overtones - >5kHz (>10kHz overblown)

What I'm looking for is similar information for the bass bone. The best estimates I've been able to pull out this far is something along the lines of:

Fundamentals B2 to G4 (53 - 400Hz); Overtones - 5kHz (>8kHz overblown)

But both the fundamnetals and the frequency range (which don't quite match each other) are only my best guesses based upon conflicting frequency information I found in my research. Overtones are little more than an estimated guess on my part, based upon even more diffuse information.

I'm using this information as part of an interactive frequency chart that I'm creating as part of my tutorial series (not, unfortunately, to write music, which I'd much rather do ). I just want to get the info as correct as possible before I publish it.

I had a great trumpet player (who played for Stan Kenton) tell me once last year when I wrote 'optional 8va' on his music, "Ben, you don't need to write that...trumpet players are going to try and take it up an octave anyway. We have big egos."
I'm guessing that goes true for all brass players.

And drummers...and lead singers...and guitar players...and engineers...and producers... Great story!

Thanks for the help, benny. As usual you come through with some good info. Much appreciated .

G.

 

[bennychico11]

here's a few links that might help you (from Trombone people):

http://cnx.org/content/m12602/latest/
http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/faq_text/slidechart.html
http://www.trombonelessons.com/sheetmusic/Trombone.pdf

do a search for Trombone slide positions. Many sites that give the ranges with reference to their slide positions.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Thanks loads, Ben (even if you did make me have to remember how to read a bass clef notation ).

The more I research this, the more I realize that I am not homing in on a single definitive answer and that that must be because there isn't one. Even ignoring such things as F valve attachemnts, it appears that the bone is a flexible instrument to a degree; that there isn't a definitive bottom fundamental note? I've found the information to vary from F1 to B2 to D2 to E2 so far - and that's not even counting Wiki's extreme value of C1.

Maybe that is true for all brass instruments? I assumed that the physical design would allow only a certain low fundamental and that's it based upon physics only. Maybe that's not quite the case, in which case I'll just gave to pick what seems to be a good reasonable or median value.

Thanks again, my friend.

G.

 

[bennychico11]

No problem, man.
At least you can read bass clef. I've heard vocal students say when asked what note they are singing, "Well, in treble clef it would be a C."
But then again, we all know vocalists don't read music

and that's not even counting Wiki's extreme value of C1.

The crazy thing is I'm not so sure Wiki is wrong in this instance.
The yeodoug.com link I gave you shows with the D-Tuning the trombone could get theoretically as low as Bb0...which is just crazy!
(although Wiki did incorrectly call this Bb1 below C1)

But this again turns us to what is practical and what can technically be done. Technically I could write for a 20 piccolo choir...but I'd probably never actually have it performed because no one would want to hear it.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

No problem, man.
At least you can read bass clef.

Well, maybe "read" is a strong word here. I was like a kid counting on his fingers figuring out what three lines below the staff was, and that was after having to look up the guide rule again. I'm really not a music reader unless I have the "cleff notes" (bad pun intended) in front of me, and even then it's more like braille reading .

But then again, we all know vocalists don't read music

Hell, I know too many vocalists who can't *sing* music .

But this again turns us to what is practical and what can technically be done. Technically I could write for a 20 piccolo choir...but I'd probably never actually have it performed because no one would want to hear it.

Ooooh, if you record that, I want to play it loud for the lap dog that lives next door. It'd drive her nutz!

Yeah, one of the things I found most interesting on this project is just how inaccurate - or at least sometimes downright arbitrary - much of the information regarding the actual frequency ranges of many musical instruments actually is. And that's not even counting when you get into different tunings and such, which obviously throw an even bigger curve into much of it.

The best one can do, it seems, is try to intelligently pick, as you say, practical values based upon common denominators, common usage, median or approximated values and such. And then throw a disclaimer (mhich most info does not include, though it should) that many, if not all, values are approximate.

This is definitiely not a topic with an "easy button" solution .

G.

 

[Ethan Winer]

> Any of you classical or synth folks that can provide this info would be much appreciated. <

See these:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra1.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra2.gif

--Ethan

 

[bennychico11]

ooo, thanks Ethan. Definitely something I'm gonna keep off to the side.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Yep, thanks, Ethan. For both this one and the response in the other thread re the ETF plots. Much appreciated.

G.

 

[dementedchord]

$ .02

hey glenn sorry i didn't see this sooner as at one time i fully expected to be playing in a symphony orchestra somewhere(long story involving cars and pain)... as a practicle guide i find ethans chart questionable... the ranges are pretty much identicle between the tenor and bass for good players (college level at least) on agood day i could get that low Bb (sometimesAb) but the thing gets pretty hairy as apractcle comcern after that E the F attachment gets you down to the B but again not very well... as too the upper limits i routinely could do the G in parenthese on the bass and on the tenor the skys the limit and D 8va above wasn't that hard (F on a good day) for instance jiimy pankows solo on beginnings starts on the C# up there... so at the risk of further confusing there ya go...

 

[TimOBrien]

I'm sitting here by coincidence with a guy who is a trombonist (and has a music degree)

He says:

Note range of a bass trombone is B-flat below the bass cleff staff to F-above the bass cleff staff. (He says that is the practical range; he's played higher, but it's not great above there...)

A standard Tenor trombone is E-natural below the staff to high B-flat above middle-C.


Hope that helps!!!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Note range of a bass trombone is B-flat below the bass cleff staff to F-above the bass cleff staff.

Tim, thanks a bunch for that info...and your bone friend too.

Excuse my ignorance on the translation, but would that translate to Bb2 - F4?

If so, I wasn't far off to begin with...

G.