Bass, knowing when and what?

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Phrasemaker

Phrasemaker

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Hi, I've only been playing bass for a few weeks and to be honest I probably have eight hours of playing under my fingers so I'm not confident with it by any means. I have a couple of questions. Does a composition with drums always need bass? Is it best to try various intervals within the key of a progression or do some arrangements come over better with just the root/octave of each chord and would I ruin a piece by working within my limitations and not getting all acrobatic around the neck of the Bass?

I have a really persistent cold and can't sing at the moment, some would say it's debatable that I could prior to having the cold, but it means I have more time to hone my bass playing. The track below is something I'm playing about with in a not too serious manner, and accept that my arrangement at as it is might generate a few chuckles but I've had a bit of fun with it while feeling rather bunged up. Any advice regarding the bass would be greatly appreciated. Ray, if you pop by, thanks I bought the bass pedal you mentioned and found it a really handy inexpensive piece of kit, which does what it says on the packet.

Thanks

Tim

 
I feel I'm still learning the bass, too. To me, learning to get consistent tone is key to good bass playing, especially if you don't use a pick. Being consistent is pretty important because it's pretty obvious when you aren't, even when playing just root notes. :)

After that, staying within the chords is a good start. Then experiment to get a feel of what works best for each song. Try to imagine how someone else would play it and figure it out.

I listened to a quick snippet of your song and it sounds good. You stuck to the root notes which is okay, but you can walk through the scale when changing from one chord to another to add a little variety. I like to throw in a some 2nd's and 6th's when changing chords, but it really depends on the song.

Does any of this help?
 
Yes that's very helpful, thank you. I appreciate that listening to other people's stuff is time consuming as I have to be disciplined and do it myself to put something back from what experience I have, as that's how the place works. I'll give your suggestions a try and put a couple of songs on the tracker and see how I go. I don't currently use a pick but might give it a try while I'm trying to find my sound with the instrument. I also noticed it takes a little more stopping other strings thundering when not wanted. I have managed to get handle on most of that as my guitar work requires clean notes so just a case of adapting my hand anatomy to suit the larger instrument. Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts.

regards

Tim
 
The what & when comes down to the song, your sensibilities and your ability.
lately I've recorded a bog basic root note bass line when developing a song.
I then revisist with at least an additional bass track that's a little more adventurous & A/B the two cherry picking the bits that work best to work on & then record a final track.
I don't do many long runs and often only use a note between the root of the chords when linking hem.
When on a chord for more than a bar I start to look for ways of providing variety - usually by involving the octabe in some way.
I'm a boring bass player but generally as I try to serve the song. Bass players with greater aspirations tend to be frustrated lead instrument players.
The most complicated bassist I seriously like is Bourke Shelley from Budgie.
Re the BDI21 - I have it next to my interface so I can tweak it more easily. I don't have anything on the ground anymore.
 
This probably isn't too helpful, but coming from a non-bassist who plays bass, all I do is listen to the song and try to imagine or hear in my head what the coolest bass line for that song would be, then I just play it back in my head and try to learn to play that part. I don't think about which notes are being used or how they relate to the chords or whatever.

If it turns out that what I've imagined is too difficult for me, I either keep trying until I can do it, or I simplify it to the point where I can actually execute.

I also think that, even moreso than with the guitar, it is better to play something with good technique even if it is very simple, than to stretch yourself to a degree of complexity that you can't play it precisely the way you want it to sound. In most cases, this should be the anchor of the song, so I think you need to be kind of anal retentive about timing and fretting and deadening other strings to get it to sound proper.
 
Bass is my nemesis when it comes to mixing...oops wrong forum... :D I play bass like a guitarist - which is not a good thing...:D I agree that simple is best for guys like me. However, I do enjoy listening to a pro like Nathan East.
 
Oh, forgot...if strings ringing on are a problem (& it's common enough to assume it maybe) the old fashioned foam mute over/under the bridge may be worth considering. With my old Emperador I use a bit of foam under the bridge cover (the cover was made just for this I've discovered) & I can adjust the level of muting by tightening a screw. With my Vantage it's a bigger issue as the round wound strings promote the problem, but I've learnt to mute with fingers & palm.
Oh, stating the obvious I know but playing the augmented/suspended/added note after or instead of the root can work quite well. For example I often play Am & lift off from the C on the B string and find that playing the A then B or just the B works well if the chord rings cleanly enough.
 
+1 on all the folks saying bass should play what fits the song.

Quite possibly the worst thing that can happen to your bass playing is getting good enough that just playing the tonic gets boring! :D
 
heatmiser said:
I [...] try to imagine or hear in my head what the coolest bass line for that song would be, then I just play it back in my head and try to learn to play that part.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I try to do that with pretty much the whole thing.
 
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The way I learned to play my first song on bass set the tone for the way I have subsequently approached bass.
The first thing I learned was "Rain" by Status Quo. I always loved the riff so that is what I learned. It wasn't until 8 years later when I actually listened to the bass part rather than the song that I realized that what I'd learned to play was not the bass part {it has 3 notes !} at all but the main guitar part. But from that night back in '81, I approached the bass in a different way to alot of bassists. I wrote tons of songs on the bass {I've always heartilly disputed Paul McCartney's claim that you can't compose on bass} and so there came a point when I'd learned guitar and started writing on it, that I had to think about how to apply bass to these songs and not the other way around. Like Heatmiser, I just hear these things in my head and they work as bass lines.
The truth is, the bass guitar and double bass are unlike any other 'melody' instrument; they are so versatile that they can deal with almost any role - melodic, rhythmic, riff-mic, percussive, sonic, atmospheric, root shadowing, plonking. It can be almost unnoticeable {until you take it out}, it can play a leadership role, it can take a song in a totally different direction just by avoiding the root, it can be loud and fuzzy, soft and fluffy, it can make you choke........
Knowing 'when' and 'what' is a matter of practice, listening and your own taste.
Being able to play other instruments can be a real hinderance. But I would say it's a major plus in relation to the bass. I often point out that most of the first wave of bass guitarists did not start out as bass guitarists, they came from a variety of directions, piano, guitar, french horn, double bass, organ, classical, folk, blues and jazz. The role of the bass was[is] definitely progressive. It was into the 70s that you really en masse began getting bassists for whom bass was their only instrument.
 
VomitHatSteve said:
+1 on all the folks saying bass should play what fits the song.

Quite possibly the worst thing that can happen to your bass playing is getting good enough that just playing the tonic gets boring! :D
Click to expand...

Yes . . . there are times when your technical capability overwhelms the technical demands of the song. Nevertheless, I don't find that always boring. I've often played music where the bass doesn't stray from the root of one chord running through the whole song!
 
Some of the hardest bass parts to play are the simple ones that don't stretch you but which require the discipline to play the same thing over and over, focused, in time and convincing yourself that though you're bored to tears, the song is benefitting immensely and any listeners will get oodles out of the song, even though they never focus on your bass playing and will ever remain blissfully unaware of the crucial role your simple piece is playing in holding the whole shebang together. :guitar: :D
 
I have to be honest and say that i didn't have ANY music theorey when I started playing - and bass was where I started. I took up bass to play in a band with friends so had to bypass the bedroom.
I started by trying to play what sounded to be right - no one in the band knew how a bass was applied to a song! I was usually wrong - my ears were just good enough to tell me that.
I learnt the notes for the fours strings to the 5th fret and just played the root for quite some time
I learnt the boxes that make blues/12 bars work and applied that to everything.
I learnt the octaves, which I discovered were in the 12 bar boxes, and applied them.
But with all of that my untutored start allowed me to select notes that often went from grace to being part of a line that applied tension.
I still find it a challenging, fun instrument.
 
As a bassist myself primarily and something every bassist seems to know, but often guitarists who play bass seem to forget or ignore, is it's also about what you don't play that counts. =P The most simple way is to follow the kick drum with root notes, and the pauses between really bring it out even more. But sometimes, you can take it really literally, and completey drop out of sections.

The next level is learning chord patterns. Using notes within the chords, with the rhythms you've already learnt. Learning melodies could help this a lot, as it's not too different, just lower pitched. It'll also help you learn how notes and chords work and sound together.

Then, I'd start learning about using the notes OUTSIDE the chords... and perhaps even outside the scale itself at this point, though this could be another section in itself. Not all notes work. But even those than don't, sometimes do. =P Especially when you "resolve" the notes, by going back into the scale and/or chord.

After this point, I'd say have a look at different playing techniques, as the theoretical part is done, and will just need constant practise to keep it fresh in your memory.
 
This current track I'm working on is a reasonable example of me combining my limited abilities in things:

This has a bass track that is number 5 in the time I've been working on this song. (I still have the other bass tracks in the project in case I go back).
When the guitar is a variant of C with some swifties happening on the B string I shuffle from the A to the C and I hammer on the C until the guitar changes to Am with fiddles so I jump from the A to B which is the 1st variation then slide to C which is the other change to the chord & I hammer there for a while. Both are fairly simple because there's a bit going on with the guitar chords.
I had a great bass line that melodically played all the changes and not the root for this section. I loved it as I worked it out but when I recorded it the thing just didn't sit - sounded like I was trying to play against the song. Counter melodies are great but it wasn't happening.
In the chorus as the chords are simpler I did a little 12 bar type walk on E & then G followed by a simple chug with gaps on the F# & F as the drums and guitar are very percussive in that spot - I actually had to boost the bass @ 3k for that little bit because, even though I was playing to leave space, the bass was buried.
Now NONE of that may work but it's a prime example of how exciting it is for me to play bass.
 
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Phrasemaker said:
Hi, I've only been playing bass for a few weeks and to be honest I probably have eight hours of playing under my fingers so I'm not confident with it by any means. I have a couple of questions. Does a composition with drums always need bass? Is it best to try various intervals within the key of a progression or do some arrangements come over better with just the root/octave of each chord and would I ruin a piece by working within my limitations and not getting all acrobatic around the neck of the Bass?
Click to expand...

No, a composition with drums doesn't always need bass...ever heard of the Black Keys? :D

I don't think you'd ruin a piece by "not getting acrobatic" with the bass...sometimes a chill bass part is the best. I read a quote by Randy Jackson one time where he said something like "I always play to what the song needs, dawg. If it sounds best with me just plucking an open A the whole time, then that's what I'll do!" and I think that is a good idea to live by when it comes to bass.

As for giving it some flair, just walk up/down during some chord changes, throw in a few 5ths every now and then, play with the octave note, and diddle around a bit with the 2nd and 6th like Chili said! (for some reason I love to play the second during transitions...no idea why!)


Good luck dude! :)
 
Phrasemaker said:
Does a composition with drums always need bass?
Click to expand...
Not at all. But only you can determine that.
The first group I recall listening to that didn't have a bass was Lifetime. They had guitar, organ and drums {and sometimeish vocals}. The organist, Khalid Rhasin, used the bass pedals on the organ to do the bass parts, kind of like Ray Manzarek in the Doors. Then I heard a couple of songs by Callinan-Flynn, an Irish folk rock duo, where there was no bass simulation at all and I found I really liked drums behind acoustic guitars. I got pretty deliberate about songs with drums but no bass {or at least sections where there was no bass}. Sometimes, I'd find that the bass obscures the musicality of mandolins or acoustic guitars.
It all depends of course.
 
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