I'm recording rock music. For straight forward 4/4 rock music should the bass drum and bass guitar always hit a note at the same time? What about the bass,snare,bass guitar? Should the bass guitar always hit a note when the bass drum or snare is hit? Thanks for your thoughts.
Bass Guitar and Drums - Lock together?
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Sonic Misfit
New member
The answers to you questions are...Yes, no, and maybe.
What the bass does is entirely dependent on the sound that you are trying to achieve. However, I do have some opinions concerning bass.
If the bass player can lay down a grove independent of when any of the drums are hit, then by all means do it. Bass is an instrument, and a good bass player can add more than just a beat.
What the bass does is entirely dependent on the sound that you are trying to achieve. However, I do have some opinions concerning bass.
If the bass player can lay down a grove independent of when any of the drums are hit, then by all means do it. Bass is an instrument, and a good bass player can add more than just a beat.
christiaan
Active member
Sonic Misfit said:
As being a bassplayer myself I couldn't agree more.
Sonic Misfit,
I'd say listen to records that you dig and find out how they did it. People can have totally different ideas about what's a groove.
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
Here's what I can offer
The relationship between the electric bass and the kick drum is CRITICAL, IMO. To a certain extent, you should almost consider them one instrument.
Nothing drives a song like the bass and the kick working together. Does this mean that neither should ever sound a note without the other? No. But more often than not they should. Even if the bass is playing a cool groove or some kind of slapping pattern, it should still be locked in with the kick so that they are hitting the major "groove points" together.
Nothing spells "yawn" like a song with no groove, and nothing spells "grooveless" like a bassist and a drummer wandering around in the dark.
Just one guy's opinion.
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
The relationship between the electric bass and the kick drum is CRITICAL, IMO. To a certain extent, you should almost consider them one instrument.
Nothing drives a song like the bass and the kick working together. Does this mean that neither should ever sound a note without the other? No. But more often than not they should. Even if the bass is playing a cool groove or some kind of slapping pattern, it should still be locked in with the kick so that they are hitting the major "groove points" together.
Nothing spells "yawn" like a song with no groove, and nothing spells "grooveless" like a bassist and a drummer wandering around in the dark.
Just one guy's opinion.
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
I've gotta agree with Aaron. Being a drummer (and a decent bass player as well) I have approached many songs in many styles as both a drummer and a bass player - and I'm convinced that the "groove" or the "pocket" is established by the bass and drums (in particular the kick drum) establishing the pulse of the song.
Do the bass and kick need to hit every note together - of course not) each instrument may add independant 8th or 16th notes, but as a general rule the quarter, half and whole notes should be locked together.
Do the bass and kick need to hit every note together - of course not) each instrument may add independant 8th or 16th notes, but as a general rule the quarter, half and whole notes should be locked together.
cordura21
New member
this is one very interest subject.
I always asked myself why there aren't many books, web articles, etc..., about how to work a groove between a drummer and a bass player. I guess many believe that either you have it or not. I think that you can improve it a lot with some guidance.
It's also interesting the relationship of both sounds from an engineering point of view. There are some basss players who have a sound that can drive a beat on their own. I always wonder if that's a requisite, that kind of bass beating sound.
I always asked myself why there aren't many books, web articles, etc..., about how to work a groove between a drummer and a bass player. I guess many believe that either you have it or not. I think that you can improve it a lot with some guidance.
It's also interesting the relationship of both sounds from an engineering point of view. There are some basss players who have a sound that can drive a beat on their own. I always wonder if that's a requisite, that kind of bass beating sound.
No way!
Don't close yourself off to all the options. The synch-ing of bass and bass drum is only one way to approach a groove (as in boring rock ballads). Experiment, drop a note right before or after a bass drum beat, hit one on two off three on one off etc.
Listen to late sixties James Brown and the JBs and old Motown records, Geddy Lee, and off tempo basslines like those in the Pixies or Sebedoh.
Just because something is dominant doesn't mean it always right!
Don't close yourself off to all the options. The synch-ing of bass and bass drum is only one way to approach a groove (as in boring rock ballads). Experiment, drop a note right before or after a bass drum beat, hit one on two off three on one off etc.
Listen to late sixties James Brown and the JBs and old Motown records, Geddy Lee, and off tempo basslines like those in the Pixies or Sebedoh.
Just because something is dominant doesn't mean it always right!
Yeah, there are SO many ways to do it right... Personally, I do love good grooves where the bass drum and bass guitar play in sync. I write many songs that way. Think of Steely Dan's "Hey nineteen"... Holy crap am I dating myself?!
But a lot of things sound great when they're independent. Not to mention impractical and unmusical to try to sync them all the time. Imagine trying to play drums with Flea, or Jaco if you had to hit the kick every time they played a note!
If they're not written in sync, it often sounds better if both parts are NOT too busy. Either a simple kick part with a busier bass part, or a simple bass part with a more busy kick part. In another older band, Level 42, Mark King (the bass player) would play these crazy-ass parts, and the kick drum would only play on 1 and 3! Sounded and felt great cuz Mark King's time is so solid.
But a lot of things sound great when they're independent. Not to mention impractical and unmusical to try to sync them all the time. Imagine trying to play drums with Flea, or Jaco if you had to hit the kick every time they played a note!
If they're not written in sync, it often sounds better if both parts are NOT too busy. Either a simple kick part with a busier bass part, or a simple bass part with a more busy kick part. In another older band, Level 42, Mark King (the bass player) would play these crazy-ass parts, and the kick drum would only play on 1 and 3! Sounded and felt great cuz Mark King's time is so solid.
bass331964
New member
Although I'm a newbie in recording I've been a bass player for over 20 years and have played with many drummers, the answer to your question depends
1 on what the song calls for
2 the style of the people playing
I find locking in with the kick drum and groovin is the most enjoyable experience a bass player can have but there are times when the song does not call for that or the style of the drummer doesn't really fit for example buddy miles and billy cox from band of gypsies... excellent lock there great groove... but look at neal peart and Geddy Lee and you will see they don't always do this but are a great rythm section.
Comes down to use your ears and experiment much like recording
1 on what the song calls for
2 the style of the people playing
I find locking in with the kick drum and groovin is the most enjoyable experience a bass player can have but there are times when the song does not call for that or the style of the drummer doesn't really fit for example buddy miles and billy cox from band of gypsies... excellent lock there great groove... but look at neal peart and Geddy Lee and you will see they don't always do this but are a great rythm section.
Comes down to use your ears and experiment much like recording
I think saxman hit on a key point - if the drums and bass are playing counter point then one (or both) of them needs to keep it more simple 1/4 notes or 1/2 notes, etc.
As a drummer, if I'm working with a bass player who plays busy, I need to keep more focused on the groove (less busy). However, in one group I work with, the bass player tends to keep a very steady low end (less busy) so I feel free to "play around the beat" more.
bass331964 mentions the Peart/Lee rhythem section - now both of them are busy players - but they pick and choose when and where. I notice that Pearts kick often accents the vocal lines (which seems natural since he writes most of the lyrics) in fact most of the Rush material is very structured to support the vocal lines
As a drummer, if I'm working with a bass player who plays busy, I need to keep more focused on the groove (less busy). However, in one group I work with, the bass player tends to keep a very steady low end (less busy) so I feel free to "play around the beat" more.
bass331964 mentions the Peart/Lee rhythem section - now both of them are busy players - but they pick and choose when and where. I notice that Pearts kick often accents the vocal lines (which seems natural since he writes most of the lyrics) in fact most of the Rush material is very structured to support the vocal lines
bass331964
New member
I agree totally Mike, as a bass player I use the same line of thinking you do if the drummer is a "busy" style player I will tend to "stay home" if he more of a lock in the beat type I will tend to fill up more of the space at the same time it also depends on what else is going on around me are there two guitar players or one? if just one and he doesn't play many fills I will fill in the blank if there are two there is less room to play and I will concentrate more on locking in with the kick, also if there is a keyboard player what is he doing with the left hand? much like recording it's about how much space there is at that frequency a busy keyboard will dictate what happens with my bass line.
DaveO
New member
My general rule is that I play what I think fits the song. I'm really just a novice on bass (about 1 1/2 years vs. close to 20 years on guitar) and I'm trying all kinds of things. In my case, we play somewhat progressive rock so I haven't been too concerned about locking right in with the bass drum all the time. But several have already made a good point I figured out the hard way - you don't want to always have the bass and drums going in wildly different directions. To my ears, letting both go all over the place all the time gets hard to listen too, like there's no structure to grab onto or focus on.
If you're talking about straightahead rock 'n roll then it's probably not a bad idea to keep them locked down a little bit tighter most of the time. But, there are no rules, so feel free to define your own style - that's when music is fun.
If you're talking about straightahead rock 'n roll then it's probably not a bad idea to keep them locked down a little bit tighter most of the time. But, there are no rules, so feel free to define your own style - that's when music is fun.