Basics of an analog recording rig

M

mikoo69

New member
I just need to understand the basics of a recording rig I want to put together.

The goal is to do 8 Track 1/2" analog recordings of live bands. I will not be doing any punch-ins or overdubs at this point. Simple mixes...

I bought an Otari MX5050 1/2" 8 Track Machine.

I want to be able to track a band. Then once the band is tracked, I want to mix the recording, using a couple of outboard units (an RNC compressor, maybe a Great British Spring Reverb). Just a basic mix, with a couple of outboards to help it out.

From what I understand (please correct me if im wrong), this is the process:

1) I will have 8 mics into an 8 channel mixing board and get levels. The goal here will be to get the best possible sound based on mic placement alone. Once I am happy with the sound I am hearing monitoring off the mixing board, I will record the band onto tape by taking direct outs from the mixing board into the 8 inputs on the tape machine.

2) Once the recording is complete, I will connect the outputs of the tape machine into the inputs of the mixing board. During playback, while monitoring through the mixing board, I will EQ, pan and send certain things through AUXs (compression, reverb, delay) for the best sound. Once I am happy with the sounds, I will connect a 2 Track 1/4" Deck OR a 2 track A/D converter (if i want to go into digital) to the 2 outputs of the mixing board. I will do a final playback of the Tape machine, hit record on the 2 track deck OR DAW, and automate levels in real time from the faders for anything that needs level automation, including fade outs/ins, etc.

IS THIS THE GENERAL IDEA? I AM COMPLETELY NEW TO THIS SO IF I'M OFF THE MARK, PLEASE LET ME KNOW?

Also, what would I do if I want to mix in digital? Would I just get good levels to the tape machine, then connect the 8 outs of the tape machine to 8 inputs on a Digital Audio Interface, set levels and record it to the DAW, then mix in the box?

I appreciate any guidance (sorry for being such a layman, I am new to analog recording)
 
For the most part, your idea sounds normal. Something I see that bothers me is that you have compression listed as an effect. It won't work quite as planned, as it is a dynamics tool vs. an effect, such as a delay, reverb, etc. You would be running the compressor inline between the mic and board, or compressing upon mixdown to 2 track, sometimes both.

On my board, I've got 8 buss outs. Some boards only have 4, or maybe even two. I've never tried direct out to my deck, so it may be perfectly normal and I just happen to have got lucky with my mixer configuration.

If you are going to go to a DAW with the 8 tracker, you will have to get an interface (USB or Firewire) that can accept 8 channels (or more) at once. You will want to run all 8 channels in a single pass into the DAW. Trying to run 4 of them in the first past and then 4 in a second pass will be a hassle in terms of trying to get both sessions totally syncronized since tape machines are quite precise in playback speed.

Take these with a grain of salt as they are just my opinions and some of the more seasoned guys can chime in and dive further into it. The most important thing is deck maintenance, quality tape, and HAVE FUN WITH IT!;)
 
mikoo69 said:
IS THIS THE GENERAL IDEA? I AM COMPLETELY NEW TO THIS SO IF I'M OFF THE MARK, PLEASE LET ME KNOW?

Also, what would I do if I want to mix in digital? Would I just get good levels to the tape machine, then connect the 8 outs of the tape machine to 8 inputs on a Digital Audio Interface, set levels and record it to the DAW, then mix in the box?

I appreciate any guidance (sorry for being such a layman, I am new to analog recording)
Click to expand...

You pretty much have the idea. Now you just need to do it for real.

BTW, compression can be used either series (inline) or as a parallel effect. Parallel compression (New York compression) involves sending signals to an aux, compressiong them and then combining them with the original by putting the compressed signal back in through an aux return. Instead of hearing the peaks pulled down, you can set up the compressor so that you hear the lower levels pulled up, but with no effect on the peaks. It's popular on the drum bus, especially. It can be a good sound. Either way, I use compression sparingly, typically just a little on vocals, but of course that is totally a matter of preference.

For parallel compression, typically the compressor is set with fast attack, relatively low ratio (around 2:1) and very low threshold (like -40 dB or so) with a bit of makeup gain.

I hope that helps. Have fun!

Cheers,

Otto
 
jjones1700 said:
For the most part, your idea sounds normal. Something I see that bothers me is that you have compression listed as an effect. It won't work quite as planned, as it is a dynamics tool vs. an effect, such as a delay, reverb, etc. You would be running the compressor inline between the mic and board, or compressing upon mixdown to 2 track, sometimes both.

On my board, I've got 8 buss outs. Some boards only have 4, or maybe even two. I've never tried direct out to my deck, so it may be perfectly normal and I just happen to have got lucky with my mixer configuration.

If you are going to go to a DAW with the 8 tracker, you will have to get an interface (USB or Firewire) that can accept 8 channels (or more) at once. You will want to run all 8 channels in a single pass into the DAW. Trying to run 4 of them in the first past and then 4 in a second pass will be a hassle in terms of trying to get both sessions totally syncronized since tape machines are quite precise in playback speed.
Click to expand...

A couple things to add here. If you plan to do all the mixing on the your external mixer and bounce to 2 tracks, you don't necessarily need an interface that accepts 8 channels. A USB/Firewire interface that accepts only 2 channels will be fine (since you'll just be bouncing the stereo mixdown). Keep in mind that a lot of the benefits from analog tape get lost if you run the mixdown through a poor analog-to-digital converter. So, that's something to consider when pricing your interface vs. 2-track mixdown deck.

Also, just to highlight the points being made about compressors here: You'll likely need 6-8 outboard compressors for mixing your recording. Unless you only want to compress the stereo mix, you'll need roughly one compressor per track (one on each drum mic, one on the bass, one on each vocal... possibly one for each guitar...).

So be sure to factor the multiple compressors in when you're estimating your costs.
 
Otto beat me to the points about compression, unless you're wanting to do parallel compression I would insert it or patch in inline rather than auxing it, although another reason for auxing would be, for example, if your inserts were pre-EQ but you wanted a post-EQ compression send in which case you could take a post-fader (post EQ) aux out, but here I'm probably confusing you some. Honestly I would stick with inserting the compressor.

I also completely disagree with the previous poser's suggestion that you should have 6-8 channels of compression for an 8-track project, especially to tape! No way you "need" that much compression unless you want you want to squash your tracks til the master VU needles are standing like a soldier :D ;) That much compression could really raise the noise floor of the project quite a bit too, and generally I recommend the inexperienced avoid using too much compression, it's too easy to make things pump and breathe and be noisy in odd and unflattering ways. Remember that, especially if you're recording to tape at elevated levels, you already have tape compression characteristics coming to your aid. You will find tracking to tape much more forgiving than to digital.

If you want to mix it In The Box, yes the best way would be to run your 8 tape tracks to an 8-channel digital interface and print them into your DAW. You could connect the tape machine outputs straight to the interface inputs, however, make sure you can keep plenty of headroom on the way in if you do this--you want your digital channels peaking at no more than -6dBfs on the way in and better to keep them peaking -9dBfs...digital headroom is kind of an oxymoron even at 24bit! If you're seeing yellow on the digital meters, you're already running yourself out of headroom, and if you're seeing any red at all, you're already turning your tracks into crispy critters. Alternately you could also run the tape tracks through your mixer and then into your DAW either via direct outs or the busses...this could be advantageous if you wanted to further color your signal with the mixer, or give certain tracks a touch of analog EQ on the way into your DAW, or if you didn't have an 8-channel digital interface and needed to sum down to fewer channels into your DAW, or you just wanted some more control over output levels to the DAW for a few examples. As you can see, you have lots of routing options in your recording setup and it's very important that you have a good grasp on basic signal routing!

I would say the methods you have laid are sound and well thought out, so welcome to HomeRec Analog forum, good luck with the recording and of course we're happy to help with any further questions! Have fun!
 
thanks to everyone for their responses. i have a very good understanding of certain aspects of recording, yet i am asking "layman type" questions simply to ensure I have the general idea right when it comes to tape machine signal flow (this will be my first time using tape)

as per compressors, i agree and tend to avoid compression unless necessary and usually rely on fader/level rides to help out any parts that need some balancing out/evening out in the mix. that being said I understand the importance of a compressor in line with the vocal, and i do like using parallel compression especially on room mics/drums, and sometimes bass guitar.

i think that if i get 2 RNCs or an RNC and something else for a different flavor (suggestions?) as inserts during tracking, and then have them as aux sends for parallel comp on the mixdown (or as a 2 bus master comp) i should be fine. what do you think?

I am still deciding on whether I want to send 8 tracks to digital and mix in the box, or if i want to try and mix entirely on the board, and then mixdown to a 2-track analog. the goal is to have very simple mixes with little manipulation.

I am very interest in the Tascam 112 MKII Cassette Deck for mixdown. My favorite sounding record over the past few years was Portishead's "Third" and they mastered their track "Threads" onto this Tascam Cassette Deck because they loved the way it sounded. I've only heard good things. What do you think about This Tascam as a mixdown? I can then go to a friends studio who has good A/D convertors and create digital files.

as per outboard units, i am going to probably get a Great British Spring reverb or something comparable for vocals and any extra verb, and 2 compressors. then i'll see what i am aching for in terms of the sounds i am getting and how i want my mixes to sound. perhaps i'll run a Boss analog delay as an aux for effects? any suggestions would be great.

also the mixer i am considering is the Soundcraft M8. It looks like its the best thing for my needs in terms of having 4 auxs, pretty good preamps, EQs etc and 8 channels. Thoughts? Any better recommendations?

THIS FORUM IS AWSOME THANKS SO MUCH!
 
briank said:
I also completely disagree with the previous poser's suggestion that you should have 6-8 channels of compression for an 8-track project, especially to tape! No way you "need" that much compression unless you want you want to squash your tracks til the master VU needles are standing like a soldier :D ;) That much compression could really raise the noise floor of the project quite a bit too, and generally I recommend the inexperienced avoid using too much compression, it's too easy to make things pump and breathe and be noisy in odd and unflattering ways. Remember that, especially if you're recording to tape at elevated levels, you already have tape compression characteristics coming to your aid.
Click to expand...

We seem to disagree here. There's a difference between having a lot of compressors and pushing those compressors to the limit. I completely agree: always, always avoid too much compression, but I'd argue that for the inexperienced it's better to have compressors available during mixdown rather than handling all your compression during tracking. With tape compression, if you record too hot there's no going back, what you've hear is what you got, you can't uncompress. It shouldn't be suggested that good sounding tape compression is easy nor that it will sound great on any old 8-track you pick up.

Anyway, a few compressors will get you by, if you want one with a little flavor to go along with the transparent RNC (but still in the same price range), take a look at their RNLA. It adds a nice bit of color to things like bass guitar, drum overheads, some vocals.

I like your soundcraft M8 idea, another one to check out in the similar price range is the Allen & Heath MixWizard 14:4:2, it's EQ is great, there are lots of routing options, it gives you 10 preamps, 2 stereo ins, along with 4 busses.
 
LOL yes I mean poster, forgive the unfortunate typo...I'm not sure why Firefox even bothers doing a spellchecker for the English language :spank:
 
I'm just a step or two ahead of you on this curve, so take what I say with a serious spoonful of salt, but you're thought processes are good. I can say that I'm having good luck with my version of your plan, which is different in that I'm only tracking to 4 channels instead of 8. I like the fact that going to 4 tracks forces me to make some choices up front, but that's just me. If a mint Tascam 38 fell in my lap I'd switch gears in a New York minute.

Going from 4 tracks down through the mixer to 2 is a handful at first, 8 tracks would be even more challenging on basic equipment, but I'm sure we'll both get better with experience on that score. I went the DAW route after taping primarily because of specific archiving needs that I have but what I discovered and like about the DAW option at the back end is that the interfaces all come with someone's software and that software usually includes some compression and reverb algorithims. So what I'm doing is tracking to tape through 4 gates, then mixing through the board onto 2, 3, or 4 tracks on my interface to the computer. Once in the computer, I noodle the compression and reverb settings before finalizing the two track recording. There are a number of good interfaces out there that operate at 24 bit/96kHz rates and give outstanding results - some with up to 8 inputs. My Focusrite has 4 analog inputs and sounds wonderful. If I want, I can go to CD, back out to 2 track analog tape or just play the stuff off of the laptop through my home system as well as the studio. Works great and you still get really nice, warm sound.

One other thought - you might want to look at the Soundcraft M12 instead of the M8 as the extra 4 mic inputs might be nice if you wanted to mix the drums to a single ( or maybe two) channel(s) on your tape machine. The 14 channel Allen & Heath could also work well. Personally, I like the old Tascam M50 mixer I found not just because it was less expensive, but it is an 8 bus mixer and all 12 inputs are assignable to all 8 busses - not something you find on the project mixers being sold new today. There are a ton of fans here of the old Tascam boards in various configurations because of their features, but you'll have to look and listen closely before purchasing something like that as older board have their own issues - like old components.

Good luck. I know I'm having fun with my rig.
 
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