Bands playing Not so Live ....OT

  • Thread starter Thread starter aslo
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:D
aslo said:
So what kind of percentages do you think we are looking at live/recorded?
Would you say that most major performers, the majority are using say 75% recorded material playing live?
Do you think most people are still singing live, or maybe 50/50 ?
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First off, everbody I have mentioned in this thread CAN play. :D In fact they can play or sing very well, its not like its Ashlee Simpson lip-synching. ;)
Steamroller uses PT because of the movie. Groups like RUSH use sequencers and recorded tracks because there arent enough members and Geddy cant do all that fancy keyboard playing. Josh Groban can sing, and he hires a 15 piece orchestra. If it sounds thin, they bump up the prerecorded tracks.

I do lots of shows. ALmost everything is real. Then again I dont do music like Janet Jackson or Britney Spears, all that is canned. The people I play with sing and their band plays. Most of it ;)

If you know who Sarah Brightman is, she puts on a very complex show. She flies around on wires, etc. I dont think she CAN sing when doing all this stuff. For these people there is somewhat of a reason that they use PT. Her show costs so much that she probably loses money, its not like she cant afford another keyboard player. Its more like going to a special effect performance than a concert.

Some artists like Britney and Janet Jackson are so autotuned and processed that it doesnt sound human. If they sang live, their fans would be like "WTF" :confused: :D It wouldnt sound remotely close to their processed, quantized, overproduced albums. Let alone the dancing, they would be out of breath. And some like the Ashlee Simpsons just cant sing to begin with. :rolleyes:

Overall, things are still live. I played with Trans-Siberian Orchestra for years, and heard many people griping that with all the people onstage they had to use a tape. Umm, there was no tape. :D I assure you, I did the concert a zillion times and it was all real. There still are plenty of people playing the notes.
 
a quick ps

I have a friend by the way that thinks im totally wrong about all of this.
He thinks every show he sees, the bands are playing 100% live.
He thinks im crazy, conspiracy theories, etc.
 
David, now im a little befuddled again.
First of all we are talking about basically playing live as in playing along with a recorded version of songs.
Obviously if a band uses samples and synths in a recording, it is part of playing live to use these devices live. A little confusion arises here. Lets take Peter Gabriel for example. Here is an artist that writes in the digital zones, with synths and samples etc. Certainly there is nothing wrong with him using all of this live. However for example on one tour he performed "In your eyes" and at the end was all the african percussion, african singers etc. and they clearly were not there. The others were playing chapman stick etc., drums, keyboard, but this collage of tribal pathos was clearly in some manner , a recording. And since there were so many instruments, voices etc. involved in this ending, it could not be just one midi sample being triggered, it must have been many tracks and layers. How do i feel about that? I guess i would say, i didnt it because it was so obviously a recording being played as a live performance. I guess the funny part is, if i dont notice it its o.k. but if i feel its too obvious, then im not happy.

What im looking for, im not really ever going to know completely. That being how much of the average band performance, from emo to big name rock bands, are playing along in some manner with recorded versions of their material.

I started with emo because i had the misfortune to see some of these bands, and it was super obvious that no one was playing the parts i was hearing.
Then i started wondering about the big acts, the older groups, the who,
aerosmith, etc. the divas, christina and so on.
And though i cant prove it, i would bet that most of these acts have a recorded foundation to work with live.
 
Dont be befuddled. :D

Farview said it- some bands use 100% canned and some use "augmentation". In the case of your emo band it sounds like it was pre-recorded if their hands werent playing.

Playing synths and samples is quite a bit different than having pre-recorded synths and samples. It all depends on who the band is, some will go 100% Milli Vanilli and its all canned. Some will have a few sound effects lick Peter Gabriel or Rush. Some might have a synth line here and there.

Paula Abdul was 100% canned in the 80s. Something like New KIds on the block or N Sync might be too. For me, its easy to tell, its a completely different sound than the recording. If it sounds like the record, it probably is the record. :cool:
 
aslo said:
Sorry if this is off topic for this forum, but i had to ask a question to get it off my chest. Ive recently seen some new emo type bands perform live, or somewhat live. This includes the infamous Fall out Boy.

Ive played music and performed for over thirty years, so i like to check out what the band is doing musically. Last week i saw a semi pro emo type band playing, two guitars, bass and drums. In order to look cute, they all start clapping their hands over their heads. Meanwhile, the bass line that was throughout the song, kept going, as well as guitar and even a bit of a horn section. All while their hands were in the air! They are that good. Dont even have to touch their instruments.

So my question is, does anyone know what techniques are used here? Are they constantly playing along with a recording of themeselves, a mix of live and not live? Midi?
Just curious.
Its also interesting to hear vocal harmonies, when no one is near a mic, or even singing for that matter.
Any experts on this fake live out there?

Thanks
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well...it IS emo. ...ahem Not at all suprised
 
Here's the way you can tell:

If there are 100 parts being played and only 3 people on stage, some of it is probably canned. I do it in my band, but since we only have a guitarist, singer and drummer when you hear the bass and keyboards, it's pretty obvious.
 
The big shows EITHER are using this for ProTools, the VENUE system.
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=20&langid=100&

OR this system for Yamaha digital consoles:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA...526CTID%253D560504%2526CNTYP%253DNEWS,00.html

OR similar systems with DiGiCo digital consoles:
http://www.digico.org/DiGiCo-05/index.htm

Lots of lots of this has been going on for a very long time. Most big groups are recording every show digitally, and its pretty easy to have tracks playing at the same time.
 
Farview said:
Here's the way you can tell:

If there are 100 parts being played and only 3 people on stage, some of it is probably canned. I do it in my band, but since we only have a guitarist, singer and drummer when you hear the bass and keyboards, it's pretty obvious.
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It might be worth specifying band members on stage.

I saw Disturbed on Ozzfest last summer. They had about 17 people on stage, but 12 of them were sound and light techs. If you can see more tech guys on stage than band members, it's mostly canned!
 
I know some bands/groups will use the 360 instant replay system. Some i know will use a laptop and a program called emcee pro.

I have seen some of these bands use these tracks (they call them "drop tracks") with success. In order to do this right and still have fun at playing all of the musicians must be very good at keeping time and knowing their song. One drummer told me that when he hits the button, he hears a click in and the song starts. Sometimes they hear the click for the entire song. I've even seen some groups with out a drummer, but just a bass and piano...but the drums are there.



From my perspective, it seems like you would be playing in a "box". You have your outline, but you have enough space to create. I've heard an artist's cd (more regional type artist) and then heard the same tracks at a concert, however i could tell/hear the musicians were improvising greatly. It doesn't take away too much when the musicians are having fun/improvising.
 
here's another option.

here's 2 guys...one plays drums and a keyboard at times. he plays simultaneously.

the other plays glock, guitar, violin, sings, and whistles. he does all this with a loop. it's all live...yet all recorded. he uses an octave pedal on the violin to get low notes.

it's AMAZING.

http://www.fabchannel.com/andrew_bird
 
oh man...i've watched this a bunch of times before...but holy crap..they are such tight musicians...

i like his crowd too...50 year old..35...20....just people. not teenagers and wannabee trendy's
 
From a fan's perspective, I think there is a big distinction between having extra tracks playing and faking. If musicians are faking, I get pissed off. Really I'd prefer to hear everything raw, but next best thing is to have the band playing along with extra tracks. When these bands go up there and lip synch and pretend to play guitar and drums I get pissed. Fraudulent, IMO.

OTOH, it depends on the artist. I think when people go to see Janet Jackson, they're really not going for the vocals and lip synching wouldn't disappoint them. But if people are going to Ozzfest, they expect to see these bands really playing and would feel cheated if they knew they weren't.

But back to the original topic, this is not a new technique. The Who were doing it with Keith Moon. That's the first case I can think of, there's probably earlier examples.
 
right, this is my take on this:
Playing to recorded tracks to create something impossible - Bands such as RATATAT have possibly 100 guitar tracks (its a wierd electro orchestra sound) but there is only two in the band, so they have one live guitar (doing the lead) and live drums (probably reinforced by samples)

Playing with recorded tracks to keep people happy - If you are one of the shit emo bands (my chemical romance, funeral for a friend) your audience wil generally not be big music fans, and probably dont go to many gigs. If they are not used to hearing live guitars and drums then they will presume that the gig they are seeing is shit.

Just for the record, i listen to emo. I like the genre but i do not appreciate the commercial takeover that denies variation within the genre, creating herds of bands that sound the same.
 
not quite the same thing...

but you guys should check out a band called don cabellero... absolutely incredible...

it's only a 3 piece but the guitarist has a couple looping pedals and plays lines over top of lines... it sounds like there's 10 guitarists and he pulls it all off live.. that shit is probably some of the hardest stuff to pull off because soo much can go wrong...


I agree that the live show should not be exactly the same as the cd but adding things here and there definately can set the mood or add a little more feeling.. if it's not over used
 
I'm fine with people looping parts as part of a show. I don't mean playing with pre-recorded tracks, but if a guitarist wants to play two guitar parts I don't mind if they loop one and play the second throughout the song. It's true that you can mess up a lot when you're looping so there is a danger of things going wrong, but you can also redo parts on the fly if the timing is off on one.

Check out Xavier Rudd for some crazy talent. One-man band, plays everything at the same time and puts on an amazing live show. You really can't understand how good he is without a video or seeing him live. Doesn't loop anything and it still sounds like there's a full band playing. Probably the most talented musician I've ever seen.
 
To coin a phrase: "Video killed the radio star"

Most people go to live shows to see the "Cute" performers.... very few in the audience really give a rats ass about their skill (or lack of) as a musician.

Video has even ruined American Idol for me... I stopped watching about 2/3 through the first season when that "cute" guy formed a huge fan base of 12-15yr old girls.... The people have spoken.... they want "pretty" not talented...
 
PhiloBeddoe said:
OTOH, it depends on the artist. I think when people go to see Janet Jackson, they're really not going for the vocals and lip synching wouldn't disappoint them. But if people are going to Ozzfest, they expect to see these bands really playing and would feel cheated if they knew they weren't.
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I disagree a bit there. I think many JJ fans go to hear her sing and will probably leave the concert gushing about the awesome vocals but completely unaware they'd been fooled. It really annoys me, but I guess what you dont know cant hurt you!

"I have worked a number of those semi-big emo shows, and the range runs from tastefully-done orchestral tracks to blatant cases where the band plays and sings absolutely nothing live, and the engineer's job is simply to unmute vocal mics between songs so the band can talk to the crowd."

Who was that!!?? We should start a name and shame for all the emo bands that pretend to be rock bands but are actually just basically dancing for cash.
 
i seem to recall seeing greenday (both live & on dvd) and coming to the conclusion that they must have a 'hidden' guitarist backstage or recorded...... based on the fact that solo's would play without him actually playing them and he'd clap his hands but the power chords would keep on coming etc..... still a great show though!
 
oz_fenda said:
i seem to recall seeing greenday (both live & on dvd) and coming to the conclusion that they must have a 'hidden' guitarist backstage or recorded...... based on the fact that solo's would play without him actually playing them and he'd clap his hands but the power chords would keep on coming etc..... still a great show though!
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Hasn't Greenday had another guitar player since '99 or so?
 
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