Baby Britain

[robgreen]

Okay, trying to get a new recording space up and running and this is the first new thing I’ve recorded from scratch in about 2 years. New room, couple of bits of new equipment and I’ve done a bunch of things differently to try and improve the general quality. This is a cover of an old favourite by Elliott Smith to get started again and get some practice in.

Had all the instrumental parts in place before I appreciated how hard the vocal melody is. Too late by then, so apologies in advance if the vocals suck – had the tail end of some kind of crappy viral thing in there too.

Elliott’s vocal style and mixing of his vocals is kinda idiosyncratic – wasn’t sure whether to go all out for his sound or do something of my own. In the end I pitched it somewhere between the two I think. I’ve kept it all fairly faithful to the original and keen to know whether I got a mix that works. Thanks!


Mix 1 - 11th July - first posted mix with vocal
baby britain 11th July

Mix 2 - 17th July - currently instrumental

 

[Bubba po]

The recording sounds nice. The drums are very buried, but my feeling is that it's intentional. The piano works well.

I like the breathy, quirky vocal. Yes, it's a tiny bit pitchy but in an endearing way, not an unlistenable one. To my ear, there are quite a few very tiny breath pops that mar the vocal slightly. It's the "I'm listening to a microphone" effect that is a distraction. A bit more attention with the pop filter/ mic placement would really help this.

 

[Robus]

I like the vocal too. It's all well played. The vocal is getting masked when the full arrangement with bass comes in. Whenever that bass comes in, I'm hearing boom and mud. Is the left hand of the piano playing in the same register as the bass? Shouldn't be hard to get this mix sounding clearer. I'd try high passing bass and piano for starters. As Bubba said, the drums are buried. I had to go look up Elliot Smith--never heard of him before.

 

[rayc]

I like the drum mix for this song - it wasn't meant to be propelled by a drummer, not even nudged.
the vocals are really nice - a couple of ssses and pops that could be treated.
Wll played and captured.
I like the bass but it wouldn't hurt to chop the bottom of it or the piano.
Cool stuff.

 

[robgreen]

The recording sounds nice. The drums are very buried, but my feeling is that it's intentional. The piano works well.

I like the breathy, quirky vocal. Yes, it's a tiny bit pitchy but in an endearing way, not an unlistenable one. To my ear, there are quite a few very tiny breath pops that mar the vocal slightly. It's the "I'm listening to a microphone" effect that is a distraction. A bit more attention with the pop filter/ mic placement would really help this.

Great, thanks for your thoughts Bubba - I agree on your comments re the vocal. I guess this is where I got caught between replicating the original style and trying for something myself. I figured Elliott close miked his vocals - as well as the prominent double tracking) to get that intimate effect, so I did the same which might have reduced the pop shield effectiveness. Then compounded by getting a bit pushy on the processing as there's quite a lot of presence on his version - his is also pretty 'essy' to be honest. I've got yet another cold at the moment (been a constant onslaught since my daughter started nursery) so can't retrack currently, but I made a few changes to the mix on the original link - peeled back some of that pushiness and changed the reverb.

Drums - yeah, I agonised on the levels more than anything else and am still trying to get used to how to get the best out of the software. They're a little buried in the original too, so that was kind of what I went with in the end - because they kind of come in and out of the song at various times anyway, I didn't want those transitions to be too stark. Cheers man

I like the vocal too. It's all well played. The vocal is getting masked when the full arrangement with bass comes in. Whenever that bass comes in, I'm hearing boom and mud. Is the left hand of the piano playing in the same register as the bass? Shouldn't be hard to get this mix sounding clearer. I'd try high passing bass and piano for starters. As Bubba said, the drums are buried. I had to go look up Elliot Smith--never heard of him before.

Thanks a lot Robus. I'm glad someone likes the vocals - took all my willpower not to bury them too! Good spot on the bass/piano clash, I think I'd heard it all too many times to notice. Yes, I think there's some overlap between the two - first song I've done with a piano really carrying the melody throughout, so something new to think about there. The current mix should hopefully clear some, if not yet all of that up.

The drums are a bit messy in sections on reflection and so need some proper attention over the next few days.

The song was a lot of fun to both play and work out the various parts for - there are so many cool little runs and variations, particularly on the bass and piano parts that keep the interest I think. Elliott was pretty big if you were into American alt rock/folk/lo-fi around late 90s/early 00s until he killed himself. One of those formative musicians for me and fortunately had the chance to seem him live a bunch of times. A lot of his stuff was recorded quite low key, but this one was taken from one of his big budget albums on Spielberg's record label - the original itself is still surprisingly lo-fi though.

I like the drum mix for this song - it wasn't meant to be propelled by a drummer, not even nudged.
the vocals are really nice - a couple of ssses and pops that could be treated.
Wll played and captured.
I like the bass but it wouldn't hurt to chop the bottom of it or the piano.
Cool stuff.

Ace, thanks Ray. Hopefully those plosives and esses are a little better now. As I say above it's a funny tune because I think there would be a few things people would pick up on if Elliott had posted his tune in here, which made some judgement calls a little tricky. All those high notes, vocal flourishes and the intensity he sings them with too were a killer, so I'm really pleased if I even got anywhere near with this. I appreciate your thoughts as ever mate.

As mentioned above, there's a quick update on the original post with some tweaks to piano, bass, drums and vocals. I'll do a proper update mix, but this was just a way to start addressing a couple of things mentioned above and another couple of things that were bugging me. Thanks!

 

[Tadpui]

This is off of my favorite album by Smith. I think that you did a good job of rearranging some of the melody to fit you vocal range. A few pitchy notes here and there, but you did the delicate Elliott vocal thing well (even though the original is one of his more exuberant vocal tracks ) It might be worth punching in on a few spots in the lead and background vocals, just to take a few more stabs at them. You sound hesitant in a few places, but it's tough to balance that versus the delicate vocal thing. I do have to agree with Bubba on the "listening to a microphone" thing. Maybe back up a few inches more? I couldn't do better, so I don't know why I'm harping on the vocal so much...

You might be able to turn the bass down just a click or two, not much. I somewhat foolishly added a sub to my monitors not too long ago and I still haven't really dialed the damn thing in yet. If nobody else is complaining about the bass, then take this as an outlier and ignore it.

Really what impresses me the most is that you got all of the chord progressions transcribed, that's no easy feat with one of his songs. I've tried and failed a few times. He had a way to make something sound simple until you dug into it and found out that the chords are all over the place and very complex.

 

[mjbphotos]

Don't know the song, I like the sound of the vocal, think you could track it a few more times and get some of the wavering parts done better. There were some guitar string squeaks/noises that bothered me Cuts off at the end rather quickly!

 

[robgreen]

This is off of my favorite album by Smith. I think that you did a good job of rearranging some of the melody to fit you vocal range. A few pitchy notes here and there, but you did the delicate Elliott vocal thing well (even though the original is one of his more exuberant vocal tracks ) It might be worth punching in on a few spots in the lead and background vocals, just to take a few more stabs at them. You sound hesitant in a few places, but it's tough to balance that versus the delicate vocal thing. I do have to agree with Bubba on the "listening to a microphone" thing. Maybe back up a few inches more? I couldn't do better, so I don't know why I'm harping on the vocal so much...

You might be able to turn the bass down just a click or two, not much. I somewhat foolishly added a sub to my monitors not too long ago and I still haven't really dialed the damn thing in yet. If nobody else is complaining about the bass, then take this as an outlier and ignore it.

Really what impresses me the most is that you got all of the chord progressions transcribed, that's no easy feat with one of his songs. I've tried and failed a few times. He had a way to make something sound simple until you dug into it and found out that the chords are all over the place and very complex.

Hi Tad, no problem ‘harping on’ about the vocals at all – the whole purpose of this cover for me (and possibly a couple of others before I get back to originals again) is to experiment and improve. I want to get used to the new space and equipment and generally get better at this stuff, so whatever sounds off to you is good to know.

The transcribing part was good fun and not too much of a challenge once I got into the swing if it – what really caught me off guard was the difficulty of the vocal. Like you say it sounds simple until you try and track it, particularly that damn bridge where the melody ascends in semitones (You got a look in your eye…) – if that bit sounds particularly hesitant it’s because I’m hanging to the ghost of the melody by my fingernails, just hoping to get through it. I tried singing the song an octave down and it was less hesitant/more on pitch, but just sounded wrong.

In truth it’s a bit beyond my vocal chops and I probably should have got someone else to do it for me, but then I’d miss the opportunity to practice recording vocals, which was the point all along. A part of the problem may be that viral-y thing (which hit the upper register quite a bit) – I thought I was through it, but I can still hear it coming through quite a bit in the tone of my voice. A few days before I couldn’t get close to pitch at all because of it and back down with it again now, so no opportunity to re-record the vocals again currently – but I’ll back off from the mic more when I do. I’m sure I can get a better, if not perfect take if I can just get this bug out of my system properly.

I’ll have a think about the bass too – it seemed okay on the various systems I’ve tried it out on, but I’ll take another listen. Thanks man

Don't know the song, I like the sound of the vocal, think you could track it a few more times and get some t=of the wavering parts done better. There were some guitar string squeaks/noises that bothered me Cuts off at the end rather quickly!

Thanks a lot for listening and your thoughts mjb. Good to hear you liked the sound of the vocal - If I can take another pass and get the pitch better soon, I will do. I agree on the strings squeak – there’s an acoustic track that mirrors the electric rhythm part in the verses and that’s the cause. It’s too loud anyway, so can come down.

I’m guessing that with the abrupt ending you’re referring to that hanging organ note after everything else finishes? That’s pretty much how it is in the original, and so as I was keeping it faithful I just stuck with it.

Thanks

 

[fat_fleet]

Hey Rob, It's pretty cool.. and really great that you're getting a new space up and running. Excited to hear some new stuff from you.

Comparisons with the original are inevitable, and the biggest thing I notice is a relative lack of punch. Mixwise, I think making the guitar a little more distinct, maybe pushing it up more would help.. as would hearing a little more snare, and the closed hi-hats that are so prominent in the original. I always thought the original guitar line for this was a direct lift from 'Getting Better'.. there's a prominent stutter- "BOP-a-DOP-a-BOPPALADOP" that really brings that out. I think with covers, it can be tough to find a middle ground between the original and your own interpretation. With me, I always want to hear either a faithful remake or something where the cover is clearly making it's own statement (disco version with robot voice, or at least radically change the instrumentation).. if a cover doesn't change up the original enough, I start expecting to hear the original. So in synopsis, a little more snare, closed hi-hats during the verse, louder and more defined guitar is my take. Just call me Rob Schnapf.

 

[fat_fleet]

Have you heard 'sxjesus'es version of this at the bottom of the page? Yours is better.

 

[paulman77]

I like this. Your vocal is nice. It has too much reverb, I think, and I'm guessing that's because you're insecure about it based on what you've said. You shouldn't be. Besides the fact that the original is more up front, the way you sing this would also sound better with a more intimate sound with less reverb. I agree with fat_fleet about the punch of the whole thing, but of course how much that matters depends on how much you want to emulate the original. The main things that stick out to me are the reverb on the vocal and that the drums (especially the snare) need to be crisper and louder. Sounds like the snare also has too much reverb. I think anything other than those two issues is more a matter of style than anything.

 

[robgreen]

Hey Rob, It's pretty cool.. and really great that you're getting a new space up and running. Excited to hear some new stuff from you.

Comparisons with the original are inevitable, and the biggest thing I notice is a relative lack of punch. Mixwise, I think making the guitar a little more distinct, maybe pushing it up more would help.. as would hearing a little more snare, and the closed hi-hats that are so prominent in the original. I always thought the original guitar line for this was a direct lift from 'Getting Better'.. there's a prominent stutter- "BOP-a-DOP-a-BOPPALADOP" that really brings that out. I think with covers, it can be tough to find a middle ground between the original and your own interpretation. With me, I always want to hear either a faithful remake or something where the cover is clearly making it's own statement (disco version with robot voice, or at least radically change the instrumentation).. if a cover doesn't change up the original enough, I start expecting to hear the original. So in synopsis, a little more snare, closed hi-hats during the verse, louder and more defined guitar is my take. Just call me Rob Schnapf.

Hey fleet, yeah I've got quite a few ideas for originals, some covers I'm itching to do and a bunch of old ones that I'm hoping to revisit - so I want to get this mix right to get things back on the right foot.

Thanks tons for your thoughts. I think you're spot on - other than the issues mentioned with the vocals, the other big area lacking for me was that the mix is a bit 'polite' and lacking presence and air. So I've been trying to work on that, with more focus mainly on the drums, guitars. I've been uploading interim updates over the last few days, but the new mix up top now is the first where I think I've started getting a grip on that. Unfortunately I can't get the existing vocals to sit nicely in this new space, so the update is instrumental for now until I can either get them to work, retrack them or failing those two, get someone else to sing it. I'm still not sure I've got the balance totally right yet, but if you get chance, It would be cool to hear whether it's a move in the right direction, but no worries if you don't get chance.

Y'know I'd never thought about that Getting Better guitar line before, but as soon as you mentioned it I knew exactly what you meant. Thanks a lot mate, I appreciate your ears

Have you heard 'sxjesus'es version of this at the bottom of the page? Yours is better.

I ran sxjesus out of town years ago - only room for one Elliott covers guy on here! Just listened now - he's gone more for the open mic night style. I also listened to a bunch of other covers on soundcloud over the weekend - quite reassuring to hear that I still haven't heard anyone yet who's really nailed the vocal. Everyone's pitchy!

I like this. Your vocal is nice. It has too much reverb, I think, and I'm guessing that's because you're insecure about it based on what you've said. You shouldn't be. Besides the fact that the original is more up front, the way you sing this would also sound better with a more intimate sound with less reverb. I agree with fat_fleet about the punch of the whole thing, but of course how much that matters depends on how much you want to emulate the original. The main things that stick out to me are the reverb on the vocal and that the drums (especially the snare) need to be crisper and louder. Sounds like the snare also has too much reverb. I think anything other than those two issues is more a matter of style than anything.

Thanks a lot paulman - yeah, I think you might have caught a last minute attempt yesterday to drench the vocals in reverb. Listened again today and there was far too much wasn't there!

I'll hopefully get there in the end with the vocals, but as I said above I've put an instrumental update up for now and hopefully can build them back in from there. I've taken some verb off the drums and hopefully they (and the whole mix) is/are punchier and crisper - so hopefully addresses some of what you mention. Snare and overheads still need a few tweaks I think.

I think I'm veering away from trying to emulate every aspect too faithfully now. The original has better musicians (actually I think Elliott played everything on this one) playing the parts better on better instruments using better equipment - he can afford more of a margin of error in the mix than I can. Hopefully I've got a better balance anyway here. Cheers man

 

[robgreen]

Links in the OP, but here too if anyone so inclined to let me know whether this is starting to sound better. Thanks everyone above for their ears:

Mix 1 - 11th July - first posted mix with vocal
baby britain 11th July

Mix 2 - 17th July - currently instrumental

 

[Robus]

The bass under control and the mix sounds much cleaner. Good job.

 

[jimistone]

great tones rob. I listened to mix #2, so I can't comment on vocals. This is a very clean well engineered recording IMO. I love the piano sound. I look forward to hearing the finished song.

 

[Tadpui]

Listening on a different set of speakers than last time, but this sounds really good to me. Acoustic guitar and bass sound great. Electric guitar sounds a little too midrange focused, but I'll have to reserve judgement till I hear it with the vocals. I'm tempted to say more drums in the mix, but I just can't say for sure. I tend to mix too heavy on the snare and kick, so that's just me.

I hear progress here though, that's a good thing!

 

[paulman77]

Yes. It definitely sounds better. The drums COULD still be more prominent, but they don't have to be. More a matter of taste than anything else, I think.

 

[TripleM]

I don't know if SC is having a problem right now, but I can't play the second version. I'll try later.

The first version sounded very good. The vocal gets covered in spots. And it's minor-ly pitchy.

But that's about it. It sounded nice.

 

[TripleM]

OK now SC is working...

Second mix... Not sure where the vocal is going to be. My only nit on this is the snare is a bit far back in the mix. And your cymbals are getting the SC swirly treatment.

 

[robgreen]

The bass under control and the mix sounds much cleaner. Good job.

Excellent, thanks Robus - your pointers on both this tune and my last clinic one were really helpful. I had "don't get pushy in the mids" etched into my brain like a mantra as I was tracking

great tones rob. I listened to mix #2, so I can't comment on vocals. This is a very clean well engineered recording IMO. I love the piano sound. I look forward to hearing the finished song.

Awesome, thanks for listening jimi. 'Clean and well engineered' hasn't necessarily been the case in the past, so that sounds like a step in the right direction. I'm pleased with the piano too. Cheers man

Listening on a different set of speakers than last time, but this sounds really good to me. Acoustic guitar and bass sound great. Electric guitar sounds a little too midrange focused, but I'll have to reserve judgement till I hear it with the vocals. I'm tempted to say more drums in the mix, but I just can't say for sure. I tend to mix too heavy on the snare and kick, so that's just me.

I hear progress here though, that's a good thing!

Ace, thanks Tad. Getting a cloudlifter has made a huge getting good clean miked sounds, so I'm glad that's coming through on the guitars and bass. Re. the electric, from memory I think there may be some compression on that track which could be pushing the mids. I'll dial it back when I'm back in front of some speakers and see if it makes a difference.

Yes. It definitely sounds better. The drums COULD still be more prominent, but they don't have to be. More a matter of taste than anything else, I think.

Thanks a lot for coming back in paul. I'll take a listen to your update when I get chance too. I agree about the drums (with you, tad and trip) - just before uploading I thought the snare had too much snap and not enough body, so I eased off the snap and when I listened back I realised I'd lost a little too much volume as a result. Haven't had chance to tweak yet. Cheers man

OK now SC is working...

Second mix... Not sure where the vocal is going to be. My only nit on this is the snare is a bit far back in the mix. And your cymbals are getting the SC swirly treatment.

Cool, thanks a lot for listening to both trip - may have to tweak again once I come to re-do vocals, but just wanted to try and optimise the instrumental mix at this point. Glad to hear it's sounding nice and I'll nudge the snare soon. Cheers