Awash in Reverb

  • Thread starter Thread starter dachay2tnr
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dachay2tnr

dachay2tnr

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OK, here's the situation. I am attempting DIY mastering. (Before anyone gets too upset - this is primarily to get an idea of what my mixes sound like before investing in professional mastering.)

Anyway, I am using Wavelab and monitoring using Event 20/20 BAS speakers. Now I thought the purpose of studio monitors was to allow me to "hear" the mixes as they actually sound. However, I am finding that when I add a little reverb to my mixes and I get it to sound exactly the way I want on the 20/20's, there is too much reverb when played back on various stereo systems (particularly those which are "bright" sounding).

Where am I going wrong? I mean the difference is frequently quite pronounced. Any ideas? Why can't I hear the reverb as well on the 20/20's?

I guess I can learn to compensate for it - but isn't that why I invested $700 in monitors, so I wouldn't have to compensate?
 
Sounds like a room problem to me. I have Event 20/20 bas and after experimenting with a small amount of absorbsion and diffusion, I have mixes that translate well on any system. Even if you had $10,000 monitors, if you have problems in your room, your gonna have problems in your mix.
 
OK, here's the situation. I am attempting DIY mastering. (Before anyone gets too upset - this is primarily to get an idea of what my mixes sound like before investing in professional mastering.)
Click to expand...

Hey man - I'm willing to bet a very large percentage of people here master their own stuff... This is HomeRecording.com right? :D

Where am I going wrong? I mean the difference is frequently quite pronounced. Any ideas? Why can't I hear the reverb as well on the 20/20's?
Click to expand...

One bit of info I got here (from one of Sonusman's posts) was to cut the high end out of the reverb... that is, make a send to the reverb unit/plugin & bring it back as a separate channel, cut the highs out of that one.

Also, if you do a check of your mix with headphones rather then the 20/20's how does it sound?

Good luck
Kevin.
 
dachay2tnr,

Monitors treat signals differently. You should be listening to commercial mixes in a similar style to your music (along with your mix) on a variety of monitors. Better Mixing = Better Mastering. So, listen to your mix, before mastering with the commercial mix(es) on different monitors and speakers. I can bet that you'll find different things that you can change in the "Mixing" process, BEFORE you even master. Don't make the mastering process a stage to fix stuff (like reverb) that you should have fixed in the mix process. Get your absolute best mix before trying to DIY Mastering.

Mastering is NOT a catch-all to fix "mix-related" issues. Ideally, a great mastering session will be about fixing "continuity" issues between from one song to the next... that is, making all of the song levels "match" by making all songs sound like they came from the same mix engineer and the same studio. Some subtle EQ here and there. A bit of tube processing to warm things up or printing the mix on analog tape. Some compression & limiting to smooth things out (from song to song).

My point is simple. If you have full control of both the Mixing AND the Mastering process, you are in error if you're adding reverb in the mastering stage. It means that you didn't add enough in the mixing stage (where you could have added it to the right instruments or voices without affecting the entire mix). IF you have control over both Mixing AND Mastering, your mastering session should reflect an "ideal" mastering session like I wrote about above. If your session is not like this, then you have not printed your best mix... period.

All of the mastering "tricks" that we usually hear and read about (adding reverb to the entire mix, heavy EQ and compression, etc...) are needed when a mastering engineer is mastering a CD with mixes from multiple mix engineers or correcting mixing mistakes when the mix cannot be remixed for some reason. If ALL of the mixes are from the same mix engineer on the same equipment, much of the "heavy-handed" tricks and corrections are unnecessary. All of the mixes should be mixed similarly (from the same mixing mind). The goal should be simply matching the levels, perhaps some minor EQ and compression & limiting to even the whole program out. Anything more is a signal that the songs need to be remixed.
 
This is a common problem. Why do you think commercial studio's have multiple monitoring systems.

You have to learn to work with your monitoring systems. Differences like this are common, as well as differences in overal balance. Remeber the monitor is their to tell you what exacly is happening in the mix, not to tell you how it is gonna sound on a home system. That's what the homesystem is for. Cheap solution ( only part of a solution though) : get yourself some crappy cheap hifi speakers, and put them as another refernce next to the Events. After making mucho and mucho mixes, you probably get used to mixing on the Events.

This is what mixing is all about. Have fun and learn, don't blame the monitoring system.
 
With reverb, I find that if I can really hear it in my monitoring system, it's too loud. I also find that if I spend a lot of time at one sitting mixing one song, a few hours or more, the desire to push the reverb aux level up gets stronger and stronger. So take frequent breaks and remember that reverb is not the cement for a mix, it's more like crazy glue, and you just need a little bit.
 
I also have a similar problem, while my Yamaha monitors do a great job in bringing out all the instruments, reverb and delay effects seem muted. I always attributed it to my monitors just not being very good. My work around was to use headphones to check mixes with significant effects, also I have a pair of normal stereo speakers I can switch to/from "on the fly" from my monitors.
 
You could get your exercise like me.

When I first started I would mix down, burn a cd, run out to one car, then the other, then to the boom box, then to the home stereo. I would take a note pad with me noting the changes I thought would help on each stereo then form a conclusion as to what to do. If the vocals lacked highs on all the stereos, it was an easy call. if 2 stereos sounded like the guitar was burried and two sounded fine I would nudge the guitar up or add a slight bit of high mid to that track.

The point is that after doing this for a couple of weeks I had a pretty good idea of what would sound good on all and great (well great for me) on some stereos. You will get used to the monitors and adjust.
 
I've noticed several times that when I took a mix out to the car (or any completly different sounding playback), the difference in the systems response would REALLY accentuate reverbs in different ways. Thus, what seemed cool at the mixer could sound real cheasy -and overdone. Usually, it seems to me it would show up in the midrange.
Also, could this be an issue with 'mastering compression' bringing up the backgroud?

I have to say, that as much as I've always loved the effect of verbs, it's damned hard to get right, let alone survive all the crap that happens to it elsewhere.
(How's the mix sound with 10K at +10! don't get me started :)
 
Less is more where effects are concerned.

I have found the less effects you can use as a constant throughout the song the better. It took me way to long to admit that I was an effects junky. I am still learning where I can really do without them.

When I use effects now my basic rule is to put them to where I can just tell that they are present and leave it alone. You can tend to get used to their presence and turn them up a hair and then again and again until you have lost all the tightness and have layered your mix with mud. And as we have discussed different systems seem to bring them out. too little will always win over too much in my book.

Hope that makes some sence?

F.S.
 
Sonusman's excellent post 1-5-02 General Discussions>Mixing/Mastering>Understanding Reverb talks about high frequency reverb and tons of other reverb stuff. As Kevin mentioned there could be a problem with frequencies here. If the brighter playback systems are especially picking up the reverb in your mix it could be that some high frequency reverb needs to be cut as Kevin suggests.

Good luck.

Nige
 
Since I'm working with the TC M3000 (I guess this goes for all major fx's) I became a real fan of their studioroom simulations. This isn't exactly a reverb, but more of a room simulation (aren't all reverbs?). What I'm trying to say is that most reverbs sound like a reverb or added effect. The studio simulation really acts like you have a major bucks acoustic recording area. Offcourse you have to take into account that this particular unit costs mucho dollars. The TC m-one couldn't impress me with the studio or room simulations.

Regarding the monitorsituation: I mix on KRK V8 and Tannoy System12, and my findings are that I can overdue mixing verbs etc a little bit , because when played back on other systems they tend to get more to the background. The point Freudian slip made earlier goes here also, mix a lot and compare a lot. You'll get used to your own monitors, and how to mix on them.
 
Thanks to all for responding. A lot of good suggestions here.

I also take note that I do not seem to be alone with some of these problems. That's a little bit comforting when I start to reach the point where everything I do sounds like *incoherent noise* and where I think I should sell all this garbage, err... gear, and take up needlepoint as a hobby instead. :)
 
As your mixes will usually undergo a bit of compression, and maybe some high end boost in mastering, you can expect the reverb to be more present in the mastered mix.
 
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