Automation in Sonar - driving me nuts!!

[Middleman]

Ok, looking for some assistance with automation in Sonar 2.0.
Here is the problem:

5 tracks of audio, 2 tracks of midi. I want 4 of these to be muted at the start and then I want to unmute them as needed during mixing. I arm all mutes, take a snapshot at the beginning then hit the record automation button.

After the tracks have ended play I should be able to rewind, leaving automation enabled and the umuted tracks should go back to their muted state when I hit replay. It doesn't work. I do this and none of the original button states is remembered. All the tracks start off unmuted.

Any suggestion? AlChuck are you around?

 

[Strryder]

After recording the automation, are you disarming all the controls before rewinding?

 

[Middleman]

Well, no, and that's a possibility. I can't remember now as it was last night late. I will check that and get back to you.

Thanks, that may be it.

 

[moskus]

Any suggestion?

Yes, make an envelope instead, much easier! Right-click on the track (in the Track View) and select Envelopes -> Audio -> Create -> Automated mute.

I don't use Snapshots because they're hell to work with, instead I try using envelopes as much as I can. You know your recorded automation data can be converted to envelopes?

 

[dachay2tnr]

NO AUTOMATION!!!!! USE ENVELOPES!!!!

Just set the envelope(s) all the way down when you want the track(s) muted, and raise it when you want sound. Couldn't be simpler.

Automation is the devil's creation. muahahahahahaha

 

[me-crazy-ac]

but what if ya want say 4 tracks auto muted for 40 sec then back on? Cant un click/mute them all at once that way.... or can ya?

 

[carlosguardia]

Yes you can... you can mute un-mute 465893257 tracks at different times, together, etc etc... you're just not doing this
WHILE playing back... you select when to mute/un-mute and THEN play back....
MAGIC!!!!

Carlos

 

[crosstudio]

that's one thing i dig about the US-428 (and i imagine any other midi controller mixer would do the same) because i can mute/unmute more than 1 track simultaneously like a real mixer

;otherwise,

do the mutes using an envelope to 1 track and then copy the envelope to the other tracks that you want to mute at the same time.

ps. i've found that clicking the mute button on the Sonar screen while having automation armed and a mute envelope in the track will set the points for which you want to mute, but then you've still got to go into the track and move the line between the points.

 

[Middleman]

The envelopes method is a good suggestion however, too laborious. I mean, setting punch in and outs across more than 7 tracks, thats 20 minutes or more of work. If the d$#%^ thing worked correctly I should be able to make my automation changes on one single record pass and then forget em unless I want to update.


Thanks everyone for the suggestions though, looks like envelopes is the only way at this point.

 

[Toki987]

Yes you can... you can mute un-mute 465893257 tracks at different times, together, etc etc... you're just not doing this
WHILE playing back... you select when to mute/un-mute and THEN play back....
MAGIC!!!!

Carlos

Lets say we want to mute tracks 4 5 6 7 12 16 at measure #24 for 4 measures and then unmute them. Could you walk me through this?

 

[dachay2tnr]

Lets say we want to mute tracks 4 5 6 7 12 16 at measure #24 for 4 measures and then unmute them. Could you walk me through this?

1. Go to track #4 and Right Click. Choose Envelopes > Create Track Envelope > Automated Mute

2. Go to measure #24 on Track #4 and double-click on the Mute Envelope to add a node.

3. Put a second node directly next to the one you created in step 2.

4. Go to measure #28 and double-click to place two more nodes on the Mute Envelope directly next to each other.

5. Click once on the Mute envelope inbetween the two sets of nodes you created. This should cause nodes #2 and #3 to be highlighted. Click and hold on the envelope and raise it from the bottom of the track to the top of the track. This switches the envelope from off to on, thus muting the track for that section.

6. Now highlight Track #4, and choose Edit > Copy and check the checkbox for Track Bus Automation.

7. Highlight Track #5 and click paste. Make sure the checkbox for Track Bus Automation is checked (it's under the advanced tab) and make sure your cursor is at the beginning of the track.

8. Repeat step 7 for Tracks 6, 7, 12, & 16.

This will take you significantly less time to actually do, then it took me to type out the instructions.

 

[Toki987]

1. Go to track #4 and Right Click. Choose Envelopes > Create Track Envelope > Automated Mute

2. Go to measure #24 on Track #4 and double-click on the Mute Envelope to add a node.

3. Put a second node directly next to the one you created in step 2.

4. Go to measure #28 and double-click to place two more nodes on the Mute Envelope directly next to each other.

5. Click once on the Mute envelope inbetween the two sets of nodes you created. This should cause nodes #2 and #3 to be highlighted. Click and hold on the envelope and raise it from the bottom of the track to the top of the track. This switches the envelope from off to on, thus muting the track for that section.

6. Now highlight Track #4, and choose Edit > Copy and check the checkbox for Track Bus Automation.

7. Highlight Track #5 and click paste. Make sure the checkbox for Track Bus Automation is checked (it's under the advanced tab) and make sure your cursor is at the beginning of the track.

8. Repeat step 7 for Tracks 6, 7, 12, & 16.

This will take you significantly less time to actually do, then it took me to type out the instructions.

very cool!! since you explained me how to utilize envelopes I have been using just volume envelopes to achieve the same thing. I guess I (lazy self) should have read the options besides volume, in the dropdown. Although even that is pretty fast.. Thanks Dach'

 

[dachay2tnr]

very cool!! since you explained me how to utilize envelopes I have been using just volume envelopes to achieve the same thing. I guess I (lazy self) should have read the options besides volume, in the dropdown. Although even that is pretty fast.. Thanks Dach'

A volume envelope would probably work just as well. That's probably would I would use myself, since I normally already have a volume envelope on most tracks. Rather than adding a second envelope, I would use the one that already exists. (I had a track in a recent song that had a volume envelope, a pan envelope, 2 effects envelopes and aux bus send envelope. Man there were lines going all over the place. )

Another approach (and maybe the best IMHO) is to simply slip edit the section of the track you want muted. Make a split at measure 24 and slip edit it to measure 28. The only drawback to this approach is there's no way to copy it to the other tracks. But, even so, I'm sure I could still do it in under a minute.

All these options. Don't you just love Sonar.

 

[Middleman]

Back to the orginal issue, I discovered the problem. Using the track view, you can run a single pass and mute and unmute as needed, turn off all automation, rewind, enable automation playback, but... here is the kicker... you have to then turn off all mutes in the track or console view if your song starts out with them in the on position. If they are on, it over rides all your automation and their state will never change.

You would think that Sonar would read the automation data and show the mute button going on and off in the track/console view as it comes to node points. However, if you have the mutes enabled in the track view all of the mute automation is ignored. This would simply require a screen refresh of a button, I don't understand why this wasn't done. It would be more like the real thing i.e. using an automated board if you could see your button changes or slider movements as the track progresses.

Weird, not intuitive, but, well there it is...

dachay2tnr, I like the slip editing suggestion, quick and effective.

 

[Strryder]

I definetely agree, when you are using mute automation, the buttons should turn off/on, like the way the pan controls and faders move.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Actually the way you describe how Cakewalk designed the mute button versus automation makes immense sense to me.

If the mute button only followed the mute automation, you would have no way to mute the entire track if you needed to do so.

Therefore the program was designed so that if you have the mute button on, it assumes you want the entire track muted. If the mute button is off, it assumes you want it to follow the automation.

Quite logical, I think. Otherwise, what would you do if you wanted to remove the track from a playback for some reason.

 

[Middleman]

"Otherwise, what would you do if you wanted to remove the track from a playback for some reason."

It would be more logical, I think, that while automation playback is enabled, the button follows the automation track and that if I wanted to override I would be given the opportunity to turn off automation for that track, group or individual button with an override/seperate option. At the very least, this interplay of features is not documented anywhere in the Sonar manual or Sonar Power. A solution is only derived by experimentation.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Directly from the Sonar online help file:

The Mute buttons in the Track view and Console view work in two ways:

- You can record or draw automation for each Mute button, and the automation data controls the buttons.
- You can click a Mute button while playback is in progress and manually override any automation data for that button.

Note the second bullet. Clicking mute button overrides automation data for that button. Sounds documented to me.

Although I have to admit the first bullet could have been worded better. It could be interpreted as contradicting the second bullet.

 

[Middleman]

Help files hmmm... how silly of me to be looking in the manual for an answer.

"You can record or draw automation for each Mute button, and the automation data controls the buttons."

I get it, I'm supposed to know that the button is being controlled even though the screen doesn't show it.

"You can click a Mute button while playback is in progress and manually override any automation data for that button. "

OK, this is where it tells you why your automation may not be working. Having the Mute button override the automation is clearly documented. Should have been part of the automation process description don't you think? I mean automation doesn't work if its on. How is one supposed to know?

 

[Middleman]

Additional info regarding mute buttons in the readme file. Of all places....

"Button Automation

When automating buttons, such as mute or any plug-in effect with a button (e.g. global bypass), the first automation data that gets recorded is first button click AFTER you press Record automation. In other words it does not record the state of the button when the Record automation is engaged. As a result, when you rewind the track, the button doesn’t reflect the state when you started the transport. As a work-around, you can manually insert a node on that envelope to set the button to the correct state. "