Audio Technica?

  • Thread starter Thread starter 13th_Omen
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Well, I don't have quite the same issues or history with DOT or PMI that a few others around here do, so I'd just like to say that I received no payola from DJL to serve him up a softball that he could hit out of the park. ;)

For me it was more a feeling that by strangely stressing "3 microns" over and over, it detracted from an otherwise very fine article. Kind of like if I was going to do the same article, but kept saying one should get a black condenser mic. By stressing a somewhat irrelevent feature, it calls into question my expertise. (My analogy is poor, because 3 microns does at least have something to do with the sound, as opposed to black. But perhaps you all get the gist of what I am saying anyway...)

Regardless, none of it was intended as a personal attack or character assasination of either DOT or Ozraves. Hope no one else interpreted it that way...
 
Littledog,

Just a quick question, here, and I intend no aggression or anything with it . . .

But you say that micron thickness is a relatively irrelevent feature . . . yet you seem to be one of the bigger Stephen Paul supporters on this (and other) forums.

And from what little I have gathered, Mr. Paul seems to think that the thickness of a diaphragm is very relevent, and has almost made a career stressing it's importance, etc. etc.

Why don't you believe diaphragm thickness to be very important?

From my limited knowlege, it would seem that thickness of diaphragm would play a very large role in how it responds to transients -- perhaps Dot feels this, in some way, makes having a thinner diaphragm a useful feature when dealing with percussive instruments. I think Dot's also been known to express his displeasure with small diaphragm condensers on drums in the past for various other reasons . . . so perhaps that would be your explanation -- that he thinks a good starter mic locker would include something that could be useful as overheads.

Reason I'm saying this is I don't think Dot's being bought out by Studio Projects . . . any more than he is by ADK, A-Designs or anyone else who's shipping him "loaner" gear to use on his Listening Sessions or to give away as prizes on his bbs. :D :D
 
I love AT mics, I have a medium-low voice, and the 4040 has always sounded best on my voice IMO
 
I specifically target the 57 and the B1 because for the money they're the best multi-purpose mics on the market. I actually think the B1 is more of a studio workhorse than even the 57.

57 works well for snare and amps. B1 is great for snare, toms, OH, amps, acoustic guitar, piano, percussion.

13th_Omen, for AT mics, I think the 4047 is the best mic AT makes, but anyting in the 40 range will give you a good mic that can be used on lots of applications.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
OK, all this stuff you guys are throwing out...

First, Dot is not a shill for Alan Hyatt. Dot is a friend of mine.

Second, this article www.mojopie.com/micproj.html came about through some philosophical similarities between me and Dot. At the time he wrote it, he believed (much like I did at the time) that the only two expensive mics needed in the typical home studio were something like a Royer R121 and a Soundelux U195. The question was what would you put around these two mics and where would you start. I think Dot did a fantastic job. I'd put these two mics up a lot higher on the list but it's Dot's article.

Third, as to my personal philosophy on tube mics for the home studio, I think most people recording at home don't need a tube mic in their cabinet and if they do it comes after putting some other mics in the collection. I think it more a luxury than a necessity.

Today, if I were writing this article, then I'd probably put an AEA R84 as the ribbon. I don't know if I'd include the Soundelux U195. I'd probably suggest the Blue Dragonfly and EV RE20 as two mics to get instead of the Soundelux. In any event, I love the article as it is. I think it's just as valid today as when it was first published.

Steve
www.mojopie.com
 
chessrock said:


But you say that micron thickness is a relatively irrelevent feature . . . yet you seem to be one of the bigger Stephen Paul supporters on this (and other) forums.

And from what little I have gathered, Mr. Paul seems to think that the thickness of a diaphragm is very relevent, and has almost made a career stressing it's importance, etc. etc.

Why don't you believe diaphragm thickness to be very important?

From my limited knowlege, it would seem that thickness of diaphragm would play a very large role in how it responds to transients -- perhaps Dot feels this, in some way, makes having a thinner diaphragm a useful feature when dealing with percussive instruments. I think Dot's also been known to express his displeasure with small diaphragm condensers on drums in the past for various other reasons . . . so perhaps that would be your explanati on -- that he thinks a good starter mic locker would include something that could be useful as overheads.

Reason I'm saying this is I don't think Dot's being bought out by Studio Projects . . . any more than he is by ADK, A-Designs or anyone else who's shipping him "loaner" gear to use on his Listening Sessions or to give away as prizes on his bbs. :D :D

chessrock;

your question is a good one and a fair one, and speaks exactly to part of the point i was trying to make.

you are correct that i am an admirer of stephen paul's innovations. but stephen would also be the very first to tell you that as an isolated spec, 3 microns means very little. it is only when evaluating the entire design and implementation that it has any value.

for example, a company might brag about making a 3 micron condenser mic. but maybe it is a nickel diaphragm, not mylar. maybe it's only 3/4" diaphragm, not one inch. maybe the design of the housing is acoustically inferior, maybe it uses cheap electronics, maybe the quality control is bad and every mic sounds completely different.

the point is, making a three micron mic is no guarantee it will sound good. i'm sure if i gave you the choice of a well-maintained vintage AKG c12 or a brand new shiny 3 micron (insert your favorite Chinese mic here), i bet i can guess which one you would opt for. In spite of the fact that the c12 has a much thicker diaphragm. As do many other mics considered to be highly desireable and studio standards.

Yes, stephen was the first to do less than six microns. and his current technology allows him to make sub-micron diaphragms! But ultimately what is equally important is his implementation: quality of manufacturing techniques, durability of his product, integration of the capsule design with his custom electronics, and most of all - the sound.

Getting back to DOT's article, all i was trying to say is that recommending a three micron mic is like arranging a blind date with a woman and all you know is that she has a 36" bust. That could be a very shapely woman if she is 36-24-36. But if she's 36-38-40, you might not find the 36" on it's own to make much difference.

finally, i am in complete agreement with you that i don't think DOT is a paid stooge for anyone, which is why i tried to distance myself from DJL's remarks. i just think, in this case, he had an editorial lapse in his writing.
 
littledog said:
But if she's 36-38-40, you might not find the 36" on it's own to make much difference.

Yea, but you're assuming that I might not like pleasantly plump women, LD.
 
ozraves said:
OK, all this stuff you guys are throwing out...

First, Dot is not a shill for Alan Hyatt. Dot is a friend of mine.

Second, this article www.mojopie.com/micproj.html came about through some philosophical similarities between me and Dot. At the time he wrote it, he believed (much like I did at the time) that the only two expensive mics needed in the typical home studio were something like a Royer R121 and a Soundelux U195. The question was what would you put around these two mics and where would you start. I think Dot did a fantastic job. I'd put these two mics up a lot higher on the list but it's Dot's article.

Third, as to my personal philosophy on tube mics for the home studio, I think most people recording at home don't need a tube mic in their cabinet and if they do it comes after putting some other mics in the collection. I think it more a luxury than a necessity.

Today, if I were writing this article, then I'd probably put an AEA R84 as the ribbon. I don't know if I'd include the Soundelux U195. I'd probably suggest the Blue Dragonfly and EV RE20 as two mics to get instead of the Soundelux. In any event, I love the article as it is. I think it's just as valid today as when it was first published.

Steve
www.mojopie.com

As i said, oz, it's nothing personal for me with either you or DOT. i admire the service both of you continue to do.

there used to be a guy on one of these forums named sennheiser who believed the only mic he ever really needed was a sennheiser 441. Anytime someone would write in with a "what mic should I use on...?" he would reply with: a sennheiser 441!

so i used to tease him a bit, not because the 441 isn't a fabulous mic, because it is. but only because that attitude is a bit contrarian to the usual pro way of doing things. Nothing wrong with being a contrarian at all - but it helps to have a bit of a thick skin and a sense of humor to go with it.

now, if you want to maintain tube mics are over-rated and/or uinnecessary in a studio, i happily defend your right to believe so. but since others with less knowledge than you are also reading this, it is only fair to point out that yours is a minority opinion. And i think it is a fair question to ask which tube mics you have actually used that led you to that conclusion.

you've chosen not to respond directly to that or others of my questions, as has DOT. Nor should you feel an obligation to do so. after all, who the hell am i?

but i'm perfectly willing to discuss these issues dispassionately if anyone so desires. as i said before, there is no malicious intent here.

so, responding to your point, i think a good tube mic can be a very significant acquisition for any studio that records vocals. DOT says it should be number eight. i might put it more like number five. you would apparently bury it somewhere in double figures. so it could be that i am, in fact, more in agreement with DOT's article than you are! ;)
 
Hey LD,

This is a little on-topic . . .

But I was wondering if you'd care to enlighten some of us as to the virtues of the tube mic design. I've read a lot of different and often contrary views on this topic . . . and I realize a lot of it is going to be at least somewhat based on nostalga for anything with a tube in it.

But what, in your opinion, is/are the major advantage(s) of using a tube mic versus . . . say . . . using a non-tube mic through a tube preamp (or tube compressor, etc.) ?

I've read a lot about the advantages and disadvantages of tube designs versus solid state versus FET versus trasnformer versus whatever, and although I'll admit it does come down mostly to the design of the individual model . . . but I believe I do hear certain characteristics that seem to be fairly universal with most FETs I've heard versus transformer versus non-transformer, etc. And I can definitely hear characteristics that would help me identify something as a tube mic.

What's your take on it? Why do you think tube mics are so popular, and is there any advantage to using a tube mic over a tube mic pre or a tube compressor or tube computer processor :D or whatever?
 
littledog, what do you want to know? I just blew in from AES and am catching up.

On the idea of tube mics, I meant in the article that it wasn't necessary to spend a lot of money to get some very good tube mics. There are a lot of great tube mics for $500 and under. That's why I wrote in the 9th priority that a few mics that were actually worth spending a lot of money on including the Royer 121, Coles 4038 and the Soundelux U195.

Steve and I have talked about me updating the article, and I will in December 2003. Having used nearly every budget mic on the market, a mic or two will come off the article and a few will be added.


Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
Dot said:
littledog, what do you want to know? I just blew in from AES and am catching up.

On the idea of tube mics, I meant in the article that it wasn't necessary to spend a lot of money to get some very good tube mics. There are a lot of great tube mics for $500 and under. That's why I wrote in the 9th priority that a few mics that were actually worth spending a lot of money on including the Royer 121, Coles 4038 and the Soundelux U195.

Steve and I have talked about me updating the article, and I will in December 2003. Having used nearly every budget mic on the market, a mic or two will come off the article and a few will be added.


Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

I'm very much in agreement with most of your article, even as it stands. When you have a chance, reread some of my earlier posts on this thread regarding my one minor issue with the way you phrased your recommendation. I've already tried to restate my point a multitude times to make it more clearly. I don't think I can do much better!
 
Chessrock;

Nice question, but hell if I know!

I just plug stuff in, move stuff around, and press record. It turns out a lot of the stuff that I love the sound of has tubes in it. There's a lot of solid state stuff that sounds great too, so it's not like a religion or anything.

I know what I like, but I'm the wrong guy to ask why! I know I love women too, but I couldn't build or repair one!
 
littledog, I was specific about three-micron LDC's in the article, because as Chessrock guessed correctly, I find a thinner diaphragms to be quicker and more responsive with fast transients. And if you're using LDC's on drums such as toms or OH's, I find for the most part that three-micron LDC's can often do a better job than the more common six-micron mics.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
I understand your point, DOT, although I don't agree with your dislike of small diaphragms.

Hopefully you understand the point I was trying to make as well.
 
Where'd I ever say I have a dislike for SDC's? Are you commenting on this thread.

I don't have a dislike of small diaphragms, but I've found in budget mics that you can get a lot better performance out of LDC's for the same applications people would normally think to use SDC's.

It's also the idea that people don't necessarily need a separate pair of SDC's.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
Sorry for misquoting you. I've got your writings and some of Oz's comments all swimming around in my brain...

Anyway, there are certain times when I find small diaphragms absolutely essential. The thought of recording a tambourine or a triangle with a budget large diaphragm condenser is a little frightening.
 
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