Audio levels on ProAudio9 w/SB Live

C

canada-paul

New member
I have my guitar effects processor (Korg Pandora) plugged into the mic input on my sound card (SB Live 5.1), and the mic toggled as the input (in the SB Mixer and/or the Windows sound recorder). The input levels on both of those are maxed. The output on the Pandora is maxed.

The problem is twofold:

1) While recording, I can make the input level meter 'peak out' (this is good, and proves that my input is not weak). The background noise is below -50dB. But when I play back the sample, the sound is muddy, certainly not crisp like through headphones, and the palm muted notes are little more than little puffs of sound. There's no "chunk"!

2) How do I monitor while I'm playing?

I originally tried plugging into the line-in, but couldn't for the life of me get anywhere near a decent level, so I switched to mic.
 
You need a pre-amp and you must use the line-in (the mic-in is for those crappy little button mics they give you with the PC that everyone throws away).

Hmmm, before you buy a pre-amp tho.... check to make sure the line-in slider in the Windows audio mixer's Recording properties is up. You'll also need to check the SBLive mixer line-in slider too (don't you love Windows??)
 
Yeah I checked the level sliders in both the SB Mixer and the Windows Audio Recorder and they're both maxed out.

(Oh man, this is an embarassing question...)

What is a pre-amp? Or better yet, for someone with an SB Live soundcard, can one record a good guitar tone from an effects processor (the Pandora has only a stereo headphone out), does this definately require a pre-amp, and if so, which one works best?
 
you can either simulate the whole thing (record with a direct box and use some sort of amp sim) or you'd have to get an amp, a mic and a mic preamp. you need the preamp to amplify the signal coming from the microphone. some guitar amps have a line out and/or a headphone jack from which you can get the signal straight to tape, but they suck most of the time, at least for distorted sounds. if you're playing clean sounds, you can get a decent sound from that.
does your effects processor have some kind of amp simulation? if it does, try that.
if you decide to use the preamp > mic > guitar amp setup, do some search on this bbs, and you'll find plenty of info on all that.

hope it helped.
adriano
 
Yes, the Korg Pandora (my effects processor) has a headphone jack on it. Really, it has two useful ports. One is guitar in, the other is headphone out. I have tried plugging the headphone jack directly into the line-in on the sound card, but the recorded volume level is extremely weak, even with the levels all jacked up in the SB Mixer. When I amplify the recorded signal 300% to make it audible, the sound is flimsy, and the background hum/noise is overwhelming.

I don't have an amplifier/mic setup, so from that standpoint, I assume I'm not going to need a pre-amp (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). And from what I've been reading, no one in their right mind should ever use the mic input, as its SNR is something like 60 dB as opposed to 85 dB for the line input (again, feel free to correct me).

So if I'm trying to record from the Pandora headphone out to the line-in, how do I get the levels up and monitor at the same time?

(Thanks for everyone's help so far, by the way...)
 
Are you sure your recording levels are maxed? There are two settings, in two separate windows, and it's not at all obvious because of Microsoft's shitty user interface design.

Here's a good write-up on this:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Lessons/WindowsMixer.htm

I'm surprised the Pandora does not have a line level out...

If the best signal you can get out of the Pandora is below line level, you will need a preamp -- they are not just for mics.
 
I have had a frustrating week with regard to record and playback levels. AlChucks message is the number one rule when experiencing problems like this. 90% of these type of problems are windows play and record mixer, 20% by s/blasters mixer and the rest a multitude of "other" problems (I know it doesn't add up to 100% but scuse me, I'm a musician.;)

Anyway, just a thought, what happens if you plug your geetar directly (no pandora) into the Live! panel input? What signal do you get then?

I sometimes use that method to play along with tracks I am learning and I get a reasonable sound from the system. Recording sounds poor though.

An amp and a microphone would be favourite, thats what I use and I have Live! too.

I would have thought the pandora was a pre-amp? My Zoom is. You need a pre-amp to boost the signal of your guitar. Most geetar processors have one.

Good luck.
 
I know the Pandora PX3 has a dual purpose headphone/line output. But of course I can't find any spec online for the PX2 (out of date I guess). I'll check my manual when I go home.

I'll recheck all the levels, try sans la Pandora, and report back tomorrow...
 
Well, I did a test. I compared 3 samples:

1) Recorded a couple years ago on a buddy's computer (P2 I think, with an SB and CoolEdit) with my Pandora plugged into the mic input. Simple one string, chugging riff with some harmonics at the end.

2) I replayed the riff last night, maxed out all recording level settings (in both SB mixer and Windoze), recorded it in CoolEdit, through the line in.

3) Same is #2, but through the mic input.

The verdict (and you know, I'd made the samples, saved them on floppy, but forgot to bring them to work :):

1) Besides the fact I put too much chorus in the final fix, the guitar sounds reasonably chunky, there's a nice little squealie in there, and the picked harmonics are loud and clear.

2) Level is WAY down... like -30 dB at best. Sound quality is muffled. Actually, there are palm muted notes in between the accented notes, but you can't hear them, they sound like faint little puffs. When I strike a note and let it ring, the initial attack is slow, then the sound is quickly 'rounded' (ala, the tone knob on your old cassette deck is turned all the way down) and the tone dies away.

3) Same as #2, only much louder (same crappy 'quality' though)

I did try plugging the guitar directly into the line input, but the level was, of course, too low to do much with. Now, into the mic input, that was much better. The bare electric guitar sound, without any effect, is pretty lame and 'uncrisp', but at least I could record strumming.

The problem still is this: I have recorded good sounding guitar, through my Pandora and into an SB Live card before, and I can't seem to do it now. And still, I cannot hear what I'm playing through my speakers. Can a simple SoundBlaster even -allow- you to monitor? Your signal goes in (to be recorded), but at the same time, I thought it was possible to send it right back out again through the output going to the speakers. Is there some trick to setting up a soundcard for recording digital audio? Some of these little 'extras' that are not to be installed (EAX maybe?) It seems to be doing some serious degradation to the signal.

Thanx
 
Are you sure you maxed out the levels for recording in the Windows mixer? In the "buried" window, not the one that appears when you first launch? The one that has a "What U Hear" device shown?

The only other things I can think of is possibly the EAX setting as you suggested, or perhaps the line in on the card is bad, or perhaps the line out oin the Pandora is bad...
 
Yeah I'm positive I changed the right window. I know, by default, it shows you the playback levels only, but if you go Options, Properties, Recording, then you get the window you want. Although I haven't got the 'What you hear' slider activated. I assumed that adjusting the 'mic' or 'line-in' recording level was the key. Is 'What you hear' for adjusting monitoring?

Since the 'mic' and 'line' recordings both turned about approximately as crappy, I'm assuming its not an identical problem with my line-in and mic, rather it could be a problem with the ADC in the SoundBlaster (if its hardware related as opposed to software). The Pandora sounds like a million bucks through headphones, and I want it to sound exactly like that on the computer.

Weird thing though... I tried plugging my digital keyboard headphone jack into the SB last night, and the recording sounded fine (levels were good, tone was pretty much bang on).
 
Although I haven't got the 'What you hear' slider activated. I assumed that adjusting the 'mic' or 'line-in' recording level was the key. Is 'What you hear' for adjusting monitoring?
Click to expand...

What U Hear will cause everthing that's playing to be routed into the WAV recording device. It should be disabled, otherwise you won't be able to record new tracks without the mix of the other tracks being recording along with your new part.

The Pandora sounds like a million bucks through headphones, and I want it to sound exactly like that on the computer.

Weird thing though... I tried plugging my digital keyboard headphone jack into the SB last night, and the recording sounded fine (levels were good, tone was pretty much bang on).
Click to expand...

Well, the latter test probably rules out the SB end. Maybe the headphone output is just too puny. Is there any way you could get your hands on a direct box or a mixer with preamps?
 
2) Level is WAY down... like -30 dB at best. Sound quality is muffled. Actually, there are palm muted notes in between the accented notes, but you can't hear them, they sound like faint little puffs. When I strike a note and let it ring, the initial attack is slow, then the sound is quickly 'rounded' (ala, the tone knob on your old cassette deck is turned all the way down) and the tone dies away.
Click to expand...

I went back and re-read your earlier posts. When you say (above) that the "levels are way down, do you mean playback levels or record levels? And in the 3 experiments, did you still peak out the recording input levels? So what we are talking about here is not poor input levels during recording, only poor playback levels?

You can monitor through your soundblaster headphone output socket instead of your pandora.

And I have just run an experiment again. Plugged my guitar directly into the s/blaster live front panel, hit record in Sonar and away I went. Sounds pretty good. I could not turn up the input volume beyond halfway on the Live! panel as it caused the record levels to peak and the noise level was too great. And yes, I could monitor on my speakers exactly what was being recorded. And I note you can't. So something is happening in windows or soundblaster that is preventing you hearing your playing.

What happens if you plug Pandora's output that you would connect to your amplifier into the Live! input? Cos Pandora is a pre-amp!

Your first post suggests that your system is recording the right levels. But if I have understood correctly, your problems stem from you not being able to hear yourself play/record in your speakers and your playback levels are poor. This suggests problems with windows or the soundblaster mixer. I had a similar problem this week except that I could hear my levels okay and the record levels were peaking but playback levels were way down, about 20db loss. I fiddled about with windows and soundblaster levels and the problem seemed to cure itself. I don't know what I did, but something happened.

The difference with your problem is that you cannot hear what you are playing through your system but your record levels are okay and that indicates a different problem to mine.
 
Something else crossed my mind. When you used your k/board, could you hear yourself okay via your speakers during the recording?

And headphone outputs should work into s/blaster inputs. I use them all the time with various bits of kit.

Questions
In any configuration of pandora, sans pandora, guitar direct in, k/board in:

1) Are you able to record okay with peaking meters?

2) Are you able to monitor your playing okay either through the speakers AND/OR through s/blaster headphone socket?

I suggest you try all these combinations and post back. But make sure (I know, I know, youv'e checked them a million times before but do it again) that windows and s/blaster are maxed out as per CAKEWALKS instructions. (See AlChucks link for details)

Good luck!
 
PROBLEM SOLVED!!

But Paul881, I will answer your questions first:

Q1. Was I able to record with peaking meters?
A1. Through line in, no. Through mic, yes. On playback, only the one recorded with mic was of decent levels (within -6dB). But both sounded muddy and weak (I mean weak in the sense that the 'signal' or guitar 'crunch' was completely non-present). In essence, both recorded signals were EXACTLY the same quality, only mic was louder.

Q2. Was I able to monitor?
A2. No, unless I cranked my speakers to max (FAR too loud for an apartment), my guitar, and my Pandora. And then it was only a faint signal, just barely audible over the clanging of my electric guitar strings. This was identical in the line-in or mic configuration.

The Solution
=========

A bad patch cable.

Now, I feel like a bit of a doofus, as I'm an engineer and I've learned many times, when troubleshooting, to check the quickest and most obvious things first. Turns out my patch cable was on its last legs (guitar to Pandora, not Pandora to SoundBlaster). This explains why, when I took the plug from the Pandora to SB, and plugged it into the headphone jack of my keyboard, everything monitored and recorded beautifully (in this configuration, I only need the one stereo cable, so the culprit mono patch cord is out of the picture) . Just to double check, I plugged my Pandora directly into my Yamaha computer speakers (which have an additional input). Sure enough, there was nothing. Yet I've played through these things before and it sounded just fine. So I reached into the guitar case, grabbed the ol' crap-a-roni patch cable that came with the guitar, and the whole thing came to life.

Thanks everyone for your helpful ideas! I hope if this happens to someone else, they happen to peruse this thread and save themselves alot of time.
 
Hey Canada-Paul, thats great news, thats why I asked you to try plugging your guitar direct cos mine works a treat and I have a similar set-up to you.

And Korg don't make crap stuff!

It had to be something fundamental didn't it?

Don't feel too bad we've all been there, done it and got the tee shirt. I spent 15 minutes this morning wondering why I couldnt get any sound output from my speakers. Yep, youv'e guessed it, cos I had my headphones plugged in!

Get making music!
 
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