Audio interface with 12 inputs, basic live recording questions

J

john_dikeman

New member
Hello everyone,

Sorry, I know AI's have been discussed to death but honestly I don't have that much time before a deadline to read through it all...

I'm looking at putting together a basic live recording set up. Basically I need an AI with enough inputs to record sax, bass, drums and piano. I estimated 12 mic inputs.
(don't worry, I'm not the engineer)
I found a lot of AI's with 12 inputs but many only have 2 or 4 mic inputs. I don't need all the other stuff.

I currently own a Motu M4, is it also possible to get an expander to use it with a bunch of mic inputs?

Sorry, I am a complete Newbie....
 
The quickest and simplest way to do live recording would be with something like either the Tascam Model 24 or the Zoom LiveTrak L20. Both have 16 mic preamps, built in EQ and compression and will record directly to SD cards up to 512GB. Basically, it's a live mixing desk with a recorder and audio interface built it. One piece of equipment to record the entire session

After recording, you can either mix down in the unit, or transfer everything to a computer DAW. They also make smaller units with fewer channels, but if you need at least 12, those would be the way to go. 24 bit recording, and up to 96K.
 
Oh yeah,, forgot to address the M4: You are limited to the mic inputs on the M4. It doesn't have expandability. To do it with an audio interface, you would need to look for one with ADAT inputs, like the Focusrite 18i20. You have 8 mic inputs and then add something like the Behringer 8200 which expands to 8 more mic inputs. Alternately, you you use a Tascam 16x08 and add a second, feeding the line outs of the second unit to the line inputs of the first to give up to 16 mic inputs. Make sure you get a decent snake to feed the mics from the stage to your unit.

In both cases, you've got a lot of extra connections, and unless you're going to build it into a portable rack setup, you have lots of possibilities for something to get messed up. Plus, you still need a setup for the PA system.

I've done live recordings with a Zoom R24, which has 8 inputs and an MX12/4 mixer which handled vocals. The vocals took one track leaving 7 tracks for instruments, not quite what you say you need. A 16 channel snake feeds the inputs to the setup. Here it is on a tabletop a few years ago. If I was starting from scratch, I would probably just grab a Model 24.

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TalismanRich said:
The quickest and simplest way to do live recording would be with something like either the Tascam Model 24 or the Zoom LiveTrak L20. Both have 16 mic preamps, built in EQ and compression and will record directly to SD cards up to 512GB. Basically, it's a live mixing desk with a recorder and audio interface built it. One piece of equipment to record the entire session

After recording, you can either mix down in the unit, or transfer everything to a computer DAW. They also make smaller units with fewer channels, but if you need at least 12, those would be the way to go. 24 bit recording, and up to 96K.
Click to expand...
Wow thanks that may be perfect actuality.
Out of curiosity howwould this compare to a motu m- 16? Any reason to consider spending twice as much on that?
 
What is an M16? Motu makes different interfaces, but I am not familiar with that one, and don't see it on Motu's site. If you are talking about the Stage B16, that would work. 16 mic preamps feeding USB to a computer for recording. Another alternate would be the QSC Touchmix 16 which has 16 inputs and will record directly to an external hard drive, so you eliminate the computer. You could also use something like the Behringer X32. I think Rob Aylestone uses one of those, so he could tell you better how that setup works.

For me, simplicity is better. Eliminate a bunch of connections, remove a laptop, etc is more foolproof. The setup I have is, for me, a bit of a kludge, but when I got that 9 years ago, it was what I could afford, and did the job. Much more complete units are out now. I know someone who still sets up a laptop with an interface for mobile recording, but his portable rack case alone cost half of what I paid for my R24! Then he's got a computer that ran about $800, and the interface and wiring.
 
One potential problem i see with the tascam is it has one switch for phantom power. Doors that mean it's either on for all mics or off? Id be recoding from a mix or mics so that might be a deal breaker...
 
If you are using normal dynamic mics, you shouldn't have any issue if phantom power is on. I've plugged SM57s and Senn 835s into inputs with phantom power. Some ribbon mics are active and actually require 48v. Just make sure that your cables are properly wired! You might want to read this: Sound On Sound - Is it safe to use phantom power.

Rob has also posted this video recently regarding phantom with a ribbon.

If that is a deal breaker, the Zoom L20 has 4 switches so that phantom is applied in banks of 4.

Is this going to be a permanent setup, or something that will need to travel. Those things might skew your approach. If you can set everything up once and use it time after time without having to move the setup, then the B16 Stage might be the way to go. Does the location need a PA system or is there already one. WIll you need any feed from the PA system, like for a mic /vocal feed?
 
Ok, after consulting a recording engineer friend of mine, I'm going to go the AI route. Focusrite Clarett 4 pre and OctPre for a total of 12 analogue inputs at around 1200 euros. About the price of the Tascam or a couple hundred more than the Zoom, but my friend said the Focusrite will have much better sound quality. And I've already got a decent computer to run it on.
The Tascam would have been handy though....
 
For sure, when you get your rig set up, let us know how things went. Maybe even post some pics of the setup. You didn't mention if this was going to be a relatively stationary setup, or a fully mobile setup.

If mobile, consider getting something like a Gator 4U rack case to mount the interface and preamp. It will help protect the gear and keep wiring more secure. I don't think the Clarett 4 has a rack setup. You might be able to rig something if you're handy, but it might be worth looking at the 8Pre which has rack mounts. Yes, it's a couple hundred Euros more but it might be worth it, depending on your situation.
 
AH yes, this would be for a mobile set up. Though, honestly it's more for specific occasions. It's not something I'd be touring with. Still, I'll check out the Gator 4U. Could come in handy.

Thanks for your help!
Now time to investigate some microphones...
 
Good luck John. That's an even bigger rabbit hole than audio interfaces!!! :-) There will be no shortage of opinions on what you should buy.
 
john_dikeman said:
Ok, after consulting a recording engineer friend of mine, I'm going to go the AI route. Focusrite Clarett 4 pre and OctPre for a total of 12 analogue inputs at around 1200 euros. About the price of the Tascam or a couple hundred more than the Zoom, but my friend said the Focusrite will have much better sound quality. And I've already got a decent computer to run it on.
The Tascam would have been handy though....
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Just for grins and another perspective. I'd have to seriously disagree with your friends assessment that the Focusrite will have a much better sound. What exactly is that conclusion based on? The Model 24 is an old school analog mixer and capable of acting and interacting as such. I do understand that, by and large, the Model 24 is Titanically misunderstood by many, if not most, but dismissing it as inferior is a tough one for me. It is not. I suppose, as always, "sounds better" is a term with a whole bunch of personal tentacles attached, but in my world I'll take that analog saturation endlessly. Just my 2 cents : )
 
Joseph Hanna said:
Just for grins and another perspective. I'd have to seriously disagree with your friends assessment that the Focusrite will have a much better sound. What exactly is that conclusion based on? The Model 24 is an old school analog mixer and capable of acting and interacting as such. I do understand that, by and large, the Model 24 is Titanically misunderstood by many, if not most, but dismissing it as inferior is a tough one for me. It is not. I suppose, as always, "sounds better" is a term with a whole bunch of personal tentacles attached, but in my world I'll take that analog saturation endlessly. Just my 2 cents : )
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Oh that perspective is more than welcome.
I'd have to ask my friend but your second to last sentence probably answers it. I'll looking for the most neutral, accurate sound reproduction possible. If the tascam has analog coloring, though it may sound "good", it's not really what I'm looking for. Also I could imagine since the Tascam does so much, maybe the quality of every component isn't quite as high? Could be wrong. I get the impression the Clarett pre-amps are considered studio quality.

Just had the same discussion with a friend about ribbon mics. Every time I'm in a nice studio and someone pulls out a ribbon for my sax, i end up switching to a condenser. Just colors the sound too much. It may be "darker" but it doesn't sound like me anymore.
I don't want a Mic to fix my sound. I work very hard to get the sound i get. I just want it recorded.
That being said i am looking at getting the NoHype ribbon Mic... But I've heard it has a much flatter response than most ribbons.
 
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john_dikeman said:
Ok, after consulting a recording engineer friend of mine, I'm going to go the AI route. Focusrite Clarett 4 pre and OctPre for a total of 12 analogue inputs at around 1200 euros. About the price of the Tascam or a couple hundred more than the Zoom, but my friend said the Focusrite will have much better sound quality. And I've already got a decent computer to run it on.
The Tascam would have been handy though....
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Please read this:https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/zoom-livetrak-l-20 before jumping.
I agree with Joe H, IF there is a sonic difference between the Zoom and other interfaces I very much doubt you will hear it. A mixer such as the Zoom is going to be vastly more flexible for live band recording. Just two things come to mind, AIs don't have gain trims AND channel level controls and the high and variable levels of live music can make gain structuring tricky. Ais don't have high pass filters per channel, invaluable for controlling 'spill'. Then, those extra mic inputs will I am sure come in useful...SHOOT! You can easily use up 10 or 12 mics on a drum kit!

I have a MOTU M4 and consider it to be one of the best interfaces around for its price and almost at any price! It is close to the state of art , but horses for courses, that Zoom is much better suited for live band recording. Lastly, IF you are worried that the Zoom's mic amps will 'colour' your sax sound ('king will not!) run the sax mics through the M4* and feed that to a pair of line inputs on the mixer.

To take a firearms quote out of context and mangled slightly..."Never give up an ounce of functionality for a (supposed) improvement in accuracy."

*Don't even need a USB port on a PC, the M4 will run as a pre amps from a $2 USB wall rat charger.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
On balance, after reading this: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/tascam-model-24 I would go for the Zoom but YMMV.

Dave.
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Yep, I pretty much agree with this review, Dave!

The Model 24 is a very niche piece of equipment and it is decidedly not something that covers an ultra-wide area of solutions. I'd probably go with the Zoom for that and in truth, I still have an old Zoom R24 that I've always said way, way out kicks its coverage.

Two thoughts come to mind when I bring up the Tascam in conversation at least specific to this thread. The first is understand I make my living with Pro Tools and I find myself inside that box 10 hours a day, sometime 6 days a week, and now entering my 21st and final year as such. I know digital and I love digital. It has, after all, provided me with a good living :) In so, however, and for me, I'm certain nothing is ever gonna react like an analog mixer, an analog 100mm fader, an analog eq, and most importantly a slightly pushed analog output. It's a luxurious audio-to-brain connection that no digital mixer/control surface has ever provided me. The Tascam has that analog vibe and response in abundance and performs that way flawlessly. The second thought is there can be no doubt the Tascam has some feature sets that are somewhat lacking. For me the absence of abundant Aux sends and returns is a tad frustrating but that's indeed old school analog. I've found a bunch of solutions in my own particular environment. The Model 24, at least from a feature set, is miles behind the Zoom and as mentioned I believe the Zoom is waaaay more capable than most can apply.

I only raised the red flag when John mentioned someone had informed him the Focusrite would be better sounding. I love Focusrite and I still have a Red 7, but better sounding, at least from someone who hasn't worked that particular board, is a tad tough to swallow :)

Just my 2 cents :)
 
I think lots of us fall into two distinct groups on interfaces and preamps. I keep changing the categories I put all of mine in. I do not have any XLR socket in my studios that will give me 'better quality', because my determination of 'quality' is the electronic performance - so I want transparency with a recording of exactly what goes in and that means my enemy is usually noise from trying to record a quiet signal, using a mic with a low output, too far away from the source. All my interfaces behave differently here and my choice will be a combination that has the least noise. One interface really struggles with any unbalanced sources that might 'collect' hum along the route. Another seems immune to this. I have one that is very forgiving on input levels being a bit hot - I suspect the red light comes on a little early, making you turn down a little more than you maybe need to.

If you give them the right signals, none sound better than the others in quality terms. I have some older analogue kit that has this sound changing property. Any mic sounds warmer plugged through them, and I have a small one that does the opposite, everything sounds more cutting. Avoid cymbals is a label it should have.

I worry when people say X will give you better quality. What is quality? The lack of any destructive elements? No noise, no distortion, no EQ shift? Is that better? For me, probably, but those who buy very expensive preamps that colour the sound in a nice way would consider their preamp better quality - but I wouldn't, I'd consider it as less in quality, but more in processing. If you were a scientist, looking to record the sound of ant's toenails on concrete, then maximising signal to noise and removing distortion would be your quality requirement.

An engineer saying Focusrite is better sounding is a perfectly valid opinion. However you originally said he said it had better quality. With great respect, that is not the same thing at all.
 
rob aylestone said:
I worry when people say X will give you better quality. What is quality? The lack of any destructive elements? No noise, no distortion, no EQ shift? Is that better? For me, probably, but those who buy very expensive preamps that colour the sound in a nice way would consider their preamp better quality - but I wouldn't, I'd consider it as less in quality, but more in processing. If you were a scientist, looking to record the sound of ant's toenails on concrete, then maximising signal to noise and removing distortion would be your quality requirement.
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Yes I guess that's my idea of "sound quality" as well. Though I am now intrigued, my friend gave me the impression that the Tascam was just a lesser bit of kit than the Clarett combo. As in cheaper pre amps and such because it's doing so much, at that price point, not everything is top notch. But I could be totally wrong. Maybe I'll show him this thread and see what his actual response is...

One thing I realize though, that Tascam might actually take up more space than a small laptop + Clarett 4 + OctoPre. Or at least be comparable.
 
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