Audio interface vs overdub

T

Tim Webber

New member
I apologize for my misuse of terms in advance.

I have just started recording my self playing electric guitar. I am using a zoom h6. I can play the rhythm part then 'overdub' and add the lead part. My son drums so I added my cheap mic and the zoom xy mic to add drums. This took up 3 of my 1/4"/xlr inputs plus the xy mic. I copied all the three tracks to my PC and blended them using Audacity....i tried to me the drums louder too. I output the song and while I am/ was happy....I want to improve.

My question is this, why do I need an audio interface when I can overdub n copy file up to the pc? I suppose it saves a bit of manual work but are there audio quality or functionality implications? I have a few more related questions but ill start here!
 
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Hi Tim and welcome. Ray is on the money! Lot of things will make a grab for your wallet in this game!
I have not checked but I am pretty sure the H6 IS a USB interface anyway? A basic one to be sure but useful.

I would suggest two areas where you will find improvement. One is cheap, free in fact for a good while. The other very expensive!

Audacity is a very useful editing tool but it is not a fully fledged music recording,mixing and development program.
Reaper is all of those things and is free to try. The software (called a "DAW") is very powerful and yet demands little from your PC ( i3, 8g ram and Win 7 will do) Reaper has a massive following and you will never be stuck for help...fork! There is a dedicated section here at HR for it.

The expensive bit. Monitor speakers, you are recording 'real' sounds in a real room and IMHO these are best heard and balanced through speakers i.e. sound IN a room. Tough part, good monitors start at a debatable $1000 a pair. Also look into "room treatment".

A quick and (some say) dirty suggestion? A 4 mic input mixer? If you see one cheap it could be used with the Zoom to mic the drums which usually demand at least 4 mics to do them justice. A mixer also gives you pan and at least basic EQ on each channel.

Dave.
 
Tim, there's no problem with using the H6 the way your are doing. You could even leave a reference track on the H6 and stack more and more tracks to transfer to your computer for further mixing. The Zoom's preamps, while not the absolute highest quality, are really pretty good. I've got an H4n and an R24, and I have recorded things on both, then dumped them and mixed them in Reaper. I use the R24 for remote recording, and it works great.

For recording at home, I've got a Tascam 16x08 interface in the basement with the computer and mics/amps and guitars. Still, I've set up the R24 in the upstairs bedroom and done recordings there. I have a buddy with an H6 and it does great for recording jam sessions and to capture his band at jobs. And, yes, it can be used as an audio interface.

Audacity is a great "quick and dirty" editor. Reaper is a full fledged DAW. It's more involved, but also far more capable. I have and use both. You could also look at Cakewalk by Bandlab which is totally free.

As for spending money, it's a fact of life. You'll soon start looking at better microphones to replace your "cheap mic". In my experience a microphone will make far more difference than a change in preamp or interface in terms of sound quality. You can use 4 external mics, so a couple of large diaphragm and small diaphragm condensers, and maybe a couple of dynamic mics will give you lots of options for better sound. They don't need to be super pricey. The AKG P120, P170 and Shure SM57 are each $100. Sennheiser e835 is a favorite of mine and is $100. You don't need a $3000 Neumann U87 to make good recordings.

Have fun.
 
Awesome feedback, thank you all. I'll get reaper. I am fine with spending money incrementally if I can hear the difference in quality of sound or if it exposes good functionality I don't already have (this will be Reaper i hope). I'd like to get some hardware with more inputs and outputs eventually but I feels I need to earn it....ie get some mileage from the stuff i have and learn.

So right now the guitars go directly through the H6 and yes it has a nice USB interface for downloading the wav files. I do have a pretty nice Friedman ASM-12 monotor that I can use but not sure I need it unless I want to record drums/vocals/guitar at the same time? I'd use it for sure and mic it too if it could improve my guitar sound but I suspect going direct to the h6 is better? Ecc83, I think you are getting at a suggestion that I do use this monitor and mic it for better sound and...clean up the room a bit. I am open to doing this for sure. Just need better mics which sound like will be my next best purchase. I'm fine with a few hundred hear and there but ill do it slowly and want to be sure it helps!

I do have a question about the logistics of this overdubbing. With the h6, do you folks know if the timing of overdub layers can get out of sync? Ie...when I created the drum layer, it sounded like it the two guitar track layers lagged a bit when I blended them with Audacity. My son (on drums) was listening to the playback of the guitars through headphones plugged into the h6 when we recorded his drums...maybe he was a bit off too! I was very focused on adjusting the h6 input levels....they ended up being way too low for the drums. It was super fun and rewarding. I need to get better at alot of things.
 
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From one new member to another, and I hope I'm not speaking out of place, upgrading your mics will be your best bang for your buck. I've been liking the Lewitt 440 pure.
 
I seem to have misled you about speakers Tim. I was referring to using good quality, accurate monitors for mixing and balancing your recordings. About the only speaker you ever 'mic up' is a guitar cab, even bass G is usually best DI'ed.

Re track alignment. My son has used various versions of Samplitude for over ten years and it is trivially easy in that DAW to 'slide' a track to line it up with another to sample accuracy. I have no doubt Reaper can do the same.

Dave.
 
I've never had an issue with tracks not being in sync when using my Zooms. The issue is called latency. You'll find it, especially in USB interfaces where you are recording directly to a computer through an interface. It is due to the way USB works, plus how efficiently the drivers are written.

Basically Latency is created due to the fact that you are recording in "bundles". Typically you will store something like 64 or 128 samples before they are sent to your computer via USB. If you are recording at 44,100 samples/second, then a 128 sample buffer will have a minimum of .003 seconds (128/44100} to get into the computer. This doesn't include any processing time for the computer, or the return trip if you are using real time monitoring. In decent systems, you can usually get down to under 10ms, or use direct monitoring for new tracks which eliminates the round trip delay. Most DAWs will compensate for latency when recording to some degree.

With a self contained unit like the Zoom, you don't have to worry about USB delay if you are recording directly to your SD card. The system delays are constant and seem to have been addressed in the design.

Delay might sound bad, but remember that sound travels about 1 ft / ms, so a delay of 5ms is like standing 5 ft from your amp. Band members stand 10 to 15 ft apart all the time without any issue when playing live. If you're really feeling off the beat, it's probably your delay not the recorder. I prefer to get the drums down first as it gives me something to lock onto. Plus, I am notoriously inconsistent in keeping time, if it's just me with a guitar.

The way it is often addressed in a studio is to use a click track. I have used a simple 4/4 snare drum machine track because the click just sounds annoying. Then you can have the drummer lock on to the click track later. DAWs will generate click tracks. Just give it the BPM and you hear Tick TIck TIck Tock Tick Tick Tick Tock in your headphones.
 
ecc83 said:
I seem to have misled you about speakers Tim. I was referring to using good quality, accurate monitors for mixing and balancing your recordings. About the only speaker you ever 'mic up' is a guitar cab, even bass G is usually best DI'ed.

Re track alignment. My son has used various versions of Samplitude for over ten years and it is trivially easy in that DAW to 'slide' a track to line it up with another to sample accuracy. I have no doubt Reaper can do the same.

Dave.
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Ah yes. A good quality monitor for mixing will be added to the list. When blending the three tracks I downloaded from the h6, I simply imported them and pressed blend (not quite so simple but close). I didn't listen to them together or ensure the time signatures were aligned. Sounds like that might be needed. I'll get reaper today and try it this evening!
 
TalismanRich said:
I've never had an issue with tracks not being in sync when using my Zooms. The issue is called latency. You'll find it, especially in USB interfaces where you are recording directly to a computer through an interface. It is due to the way USB works, plus how efficiently the drivers are written.

Basically Latency is created due to the fact that you are recording in "bundles". Typically you will store something like 64 or 128 samples before they are sent to your computer via USB. If you are recording at 44,100 samples/second, then a 128 sample buffer will have a minimum of .003 seconds (128/44100} to get into the computer. This doesn't include any processing time for the computer, or the return trip if you are using real time monitoring. In decent systems, you can usually get down to under 10ms, or use direct monitoring for new tracks which eliminates the round trip delay. Most DAWs will compensate for latency when recording to some degree.

With a self contained unit like the Zoom, you don't have to worry about USB delay if you are recording directly to your SD card. The system delays are constant and seem to have been addressed in the design.

Delay might sound bad, but remember that sound travels about 1 ft / ms, so a delay of 5ms is like standing 5 ft from your amp. Band members stand 10 to 15 ft apart all the time without any issue when playing live. If you're really feeling off the beat, it's probably your delay not the recorder. I prefer to get the drums down first as it gives me something to lock onto. Plus, I am notoriously inconsistent in keeping time, if it's just me with a guitar.

The way it is often addressed in a studio is to use a click track. I have used a simple 4/4 snare drum machine track because the click just sounds annoying. Then you can have the drummer lock on to the click track later. DAWs will generate click tracks. Just give it the BPM and you hear Tick TIck TIck Tock Tick Tick Tick Tock in your headphones.
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Thx! I'll try it all! Drums first and also me on guitar first with a metronome. The h6 has a metronome as does the cheap amp modeller (moore ge150) thats sits before the h6 and after my guitar in the order of things
 
ecc83 said:
Reaper is all of those things and is free to try. The software (called a "DAW") is very powerful and yet demands little from your PC ( i3, 8g ram and Win 7 will do)
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That spec is overkill for Reaper. Up until recently my remote recording rig was an old AMD Duron laptop running Windows XP with only 512MB of memory. It handled 24 track recording and mixing with no problems unless I tried to use multiple convolution reverbs.

The Zoom X-Y mics that the OP is using are actually very good for capturing natural sounds in my opinion. A dynamic mic like an SM57 or Sennheiser MD604 might be more appropriate for guitar or drums but the Zoom mic will get you started.
 
Tim Webber said:
I apologize for my misuse of terms in advance.

I have just started recording my self playing electric guitar. I am using a zoom h6. I can play the rhythm part then 'overdub' and add the lead part. My son drums so I added my cheap mic and the zoom xy mic to add drums. This took up 3 of my 1/4"/xlr inputs plus the xy mic. I copied all the three tracks to my PC and blended them using Audacity....i tried to me the drums louder too. I output the song and while I am/ was happy....I want to improve.

My question is this, why do I need an audio interface when I can overdub n copy file up to the pc? I suppose it saves a bit of manual work but are there audio quality or functionality implications? I have a few more related questions but ill start here!
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The way you work you don’t need an interface yet - but using one makes life a llittle easier.
 
Tim Webber said:
Thanks...this was my hunch. I don't mind shuffling file around for now. I'm sure it will get old but full on loving play with all the cool stuff for now.
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OK, well when you think you are ready to splash out on a interface TAKE YOUR TIME. The market is a vast one and the variations and facilities legion. Try to get a really good handle on what you want an AI to do, number of mic pres say, some have very powerful internal mixer/routing software, others can be technically excellent but far simpler.

A good place to look at reviews is www.soundonsound.com

Dave.
 
Thx James! Indeed, i've read a wee bit about using the h6 as an Audio Interface and it sounds like it works. What I was wondering (mainly) was if there was some advantage (other than convenience/efficiency with time...) to using overdub vs an audio interface. I think my biggest limitation right now is the number of inputs. I can convert the h6 (spending $100) to have 6 inputs. I've heard i need 3 or 4 minimum for the drums. My h6 is really an h4 right now with an xy mic. Thats fine! Ill use it as it is for now.

I could also consider getting an inexpensive 4*4 for mic'ing the drums. My understanding is that I would then need to daisy chain this 4*4 using 2 lines out (something the 4*4 would have to have) and putting those output into two of my h6's 4 inputs leaving me with 2 left (unless I spend the $100 to get 2 more and lose the xy-mic). Two left over is definately not enough... So, all that makes me think my best next move is getting a larger mixer....one that can handle 3 guitars, drums, a singer or two and a few mic's for my super cool Hammond B3!

Until then, i plan on using overdub to build up as many tracks as I want. I haven't tried this but I think I can (as suggested above) leave a reference track or 2 on the h6 meaning I have two tracks to use to record with. Once used, ill transfer those two tracks to the computer and...i can create two more. Its probably sounds like a major pain in the butt but Im ok with it for now!
 
I should add that I am using Reaper. I like it. I have not done alot but I have input a guitar track and output an mpg for my son to listen to so he can practice for a drum track! The plan (and I dont think its the right way to go logistically but were gna try) is he will drum and Ill record it on the h6 with my poverty mic and the h6 X-Y mic (they work but its a bit campy). After that, Ill lay down a few guitar tracks and it will all get loaded into Reaper where Ill experiment.
 
It didn't sound like he was planning to do 6 tracks at once, especially since he only has one microphone at this point, so a max of 3. He could add 2 more mics and still have a reference track. Dump that and add 4 more, etc.

I've used my H4n in Multitrack mode. I did a scratch track on 1, and then recorded multiple vocal tracks on the other 3 tracks. I dumped things into Reaper and went back for more. The final mix had guitar and 4 vocals. It's was like 1964 again.

I have only used my H4n once as a interface, but I didn't do multitracking, so I don't know how well controlled the latency is. As for copying tracks, I just pull the SD card and copy. It takes about 2 minutes, about as long as it used to take to rewind a reel of tape.

Eventually, I nabbed an R24.... No more dump and add more needed. I never even used all 24 tracks.
 
TalismanRich said:
It didn't sound like he was planning to do 6 tracks at once, especially since he only has one microphone at this point, so a max of 3. He could add 2 more mics and still have a reference track. Dump that and add 4 more, etc.

I've used my H4n in Multitrack mode. I did a scratch track on 1, and then recorded multiple vocal tracks on the other 3 tracks. I dumped things into Reaper and went back for more. The final mix had guitar and 4 vocals. It's was like 1964 again.

I have only used my H4n once as a interface, but I didn't do multitracking, so I don't know how well controlled the latency is. As for copying tracks, I just pull the SD card and copy. It takes about 2 minutes, about as long as it used to take to rewind a reel of tape.

Eventually, I nabbed an R24.... No more dump and add more needed. I never even used all 24 tracks.
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Yeah, I would love the flexibility to record as many tracks as I want and am open to getting a more capable mixer in the future. For now, Ill use the h6 and overdub the stuff I need. In the h6, it has a menu item for "read USB card" from the computer so its one step easier than the h4 probably. So, say 1982 then?
 
1982??? My TI 99/4A didn't have any USB in 1982. It did have 48KB memory and a 90KB single sided floppy drive. Home digital recorders really didn't hit the market until the late 90s, and they were quite expensive. Things like the Roland VS880, VS 2480, Tascam 2488 and Yamaha AW4416 began to take over from the cassette Portastudios around 2000.

The reference to 1964 was because many groups used 4 track tape decks and had to bump down to a track, then add several more. Sargent Pepper and Pet Sounds were recorded on a 4 track but there are a LOT of "tracks" on those 4 track tapes.

The Zoom H6 for a few hundred bucks is a really nice piece of gear.
 
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