Attn. Dragon-How about a singer's forum?

  • Thread starter Thread starter chessparov
  • Start date Start date
How about a Harmonica Forum? Or Horns & Reeds Forum? Or Latin Percussion (maracas,timbales,cowbells,etc)Forum? Or a Finger-Snapping forum, Or African Kalimba Forum? Irish Bagpipes Forum? Classical Music Forum? Arranging and Composing Forum?
ETC,ETC,ETC!!!!!

The point is it will be extremely confusing, bandwidth wasting, and time consuming to sit and try and go thru 20-30 or more forums just to find an answer to your question or trying to figure out where to post your questions!

I should know! I begged and begged and begged and begged for
a "Mixing and Mastering" Forum and after a few months The Dragon relented! Then I got greedy requesting a "Compression & Signal Processing "Forum and guess what, it ain't here!

So simply post your vocal questions in either the mic forum or the "Songwriters" forum and most often ,you question will be answered!

Peace
Mr.Q
 
MISTERQUE, thanks for all your effort in helping to start the
Mixing/Mastering forum it's helped me (& others) a lot!
Having said that though......
How many more hit songs have a lead vocal on them compared
to instrumental only hits? How many hits have so-so instrumental
backgrounds, yet with that "magic" vocal become classics?
Oddly enough it led me to the conclusion that if we have the
"guitar" forum, the "drum" forum, etc.-maybe the most important
ingrediant, the singing, also deserved it's own separate forum.
Having a centralized forum also makes it easier for fellow
singers to I.D. one another and share ideas for improvement.
Within a year so, working on my own vocal technique, I'd probably
be competent enough to help as a moderator if no one else wants
to do it, and that would be purely on the non-classical level.

P.S. When I saw "harmonica forum" I though "great idea"!
(Until I read the rest)
 
MISTERQCUE, I too thank you for your "Mixing and Mastering" forum. But, I have to agree with Chessparov that singing is the key (my emphasis) ingredient. Regardless, of what you're playing, if someone sings it sucky the song is gonna sound sucky. And it would be a shame if the singer was just having a technical problem. It would be nice to have a place to come to and discuss the voice instrument and pick up a few tips that come from people with experience. I'm going to quit rambling now.
 
I think this is a good idea. Vocalist forum. Considering how important vocals/voice is in popular music. Do it. We have a 'guitar' forum, 'drum' forum, but no vocal forum... does seem odd, never really thought about it. I can't imagine what people would talk about, but I'm curious.

Get rid of the Event forum, it gets about two posts per month. Ditch it and replace it with 'The Vocal Booth'..

Got my vote.
 
WELLLLLL.............

............if my main man EMERIC want's a vocal Forum ('specially after hearing his most AWESOME music) I'll go with the flow!!!

I'll start beggin' Dragonian Dave again!!!
Wish me luck!!!!
 
Thanks MrQ! After we start the forum we'll set up the magazine and
make c7sus our editor in chief. Maybe we can put hearing protectors
in it too!
 
Thanks from me too Mr. Q, and thanks for the vote Emeric! I think you guys will be surprised at the traffic the forum will receive. C7, I can't wait until that magazine comes out! I won't need the whole 6' of foil though so i think i'm gonna cut off the excess and make myself a cute, skimpy, sexy little outfit to wear out of it.

t
 
Now we're talking...

Be sure to post us a photo... :D

Queue
(the other one)
 
I also think vocalists are worth their own forum. ;)

"The Vocal Booth" sounds great!
 
agree with Sabith

I tried to learn to sing from a book/CD set for many years (Seth Riggs)-- I can comfortably say that this is NOT THE WAY TO GO.

Study with a person you trust who can hear and correct you.

It's not like chess, because in chess your opponent always teaches you.

A tape recorder can lie. I have found it can easily distort color and volume.

Progress isn't always linear with a teacher. There will be times that you will think you are circling the drain for a while. But if you try to learn on your own you will circle the drain for a good long while-- guaranteed!

-jk
 
And another thing...
Jerry, with all due respect, the method of using singing book(s)/cd's DOES
work! (It has for me and others) It's just you're better off planning to do
some real singing to balance out the "ivory tower" stuff.
Yes it would have taken longer to improve my technique without a formal
teacher, however, it can be done through singing with other (better)
singers. Case in point-Placido Dominigo, he never took formal lessons!
His parents, however, were top Zarzuela (Spanish Opera) singers and
he'd hang out at their music parties at home learning how to sing.
There is an extremely close relationship between learning how to sing
and playing good chess. Music and chess are very pattern oriented.
I happen to be a strong amateur at both-Senior Master strength at chess,
(advanced) intermediate level at acapella (barbershop) singing,
starting training to eventually enter the "International" championship,
where the top 20 barbershop quartets in the world compete.
Doubling up with a better singer on a challenging part can be a great
way to learn. Once or twice a month we get "drop ins" at my weekly
meetings that are national and/or world class level singers.
That, along with self recording has been a great help.

P.S. I still hope we get our own forum!
 
Recommendations?

Chess,
Can you recommend a book/CD combo for vocal technique/instruction? I'd prefer that to video, as I don't have a VCR in my studio loft. DVD is ok too, but I doubt there's many available.

I'd like to go this route rather than personal instructor, as it is less expensive and self-paced.

Queue
 
chessparov said:
Case in point-Placido Dominigo, he never took formal lessons!
His parents, however, were top Zarzuela (Spanish Opera) singers and
he'd hang out at their music parties at home learning how to sing.
Click to expand...

hehehe ya...... jerry never said you HAD to take FORMAL lessons, he said "Study with a person you trust who can hear and correct you. " And well........ that includes hanging out with your Opera singin parents. Jerry never said U had to have some fancy teacher just "somone who can hear and correct you" which includes your parents, whether they can sing or not..... they can still say what sounds good. :D

Originally posted by chessparov There is an extremely close relationship between learning how to sing and playing good chess. Music and chess are very pattern oriented.
Click to expand...

well....... kinda I guess.......... there are a lot of patterns in both, but neither will influence the other(ie you won't be a better singer just cause you good at chess). While chess is a very mental game, singing is very mentally and physically demanding, so I don't see a big connection........

And I agree that being with someone thats better can help you improve yourself.... but that really goes for anything :D

Just when I thought this post died :D

Sabith
 
Queue, get "Secrets of Singing", by Jeffrey Allen (note-there are two versions-male &
female) and "Set Your Voice Free" by Roger Love, both are excellent.

Sabith, thanks for improving my comments to be better "on pitch".
I only meant chess and music in an analogus fashion, for example, serious chessplayers
study "combinations"-sequences of moves, and serious singers study sequences of
musical notes like scales or vocal exercises. While you're correct that being with
someone better helps in anything, many aspiring singers limit themselves to just
self study or lessons. Adding a regular performance structure speeds up learning.
 
chess-- sorry, I am just catching up on these singing threads now, after a few days away.

Clearly you are a talented person, based on your successes. It is my belief that some very talented people will succeed greatly
regardless of the methods they choose.

I wish I was one of those people.

It is very interesting to me that you have referred to Placido Dominigo, because he is one of my favorite classical singers. And I have another connection with him as well. About 4 weeks ago my teacher showed me a procedure that Domingo uses frequently to open up his sinuses (which I described in the other thread). After performing this odd 'clearing' technique, and then singing immediately afterward, I was at once able to 'place' my voice in a completely different position, which turned out to be much more conducive to good singing. (I described this shebang in detail in the other thread, so I will spare you all that here.)

My point: it actually seemed much worse to me at the time it happened-- the resulting sound was way too small and thin to me, and I immediately wanted to dismiss it. In fact, I had definitely stumbled upon this same vocal placement on my own, several years in the past, but abandoned it at once, even though it seemed to give me greater freedom, because it felt wrong.

But my teacher immediately loved the new sound! Of course..."DUH"... I suddenly realized that since it was much easier to work with and my range increased and it FELT better even though it sounded worse in my head... voila! It met all the requirements that I have come to know as signs of possible vocal improvement-- i.e. sounds worse, feels better.

And now it's my new voice.

Incidentally, my teacher doesn't use this method himself, but we were fishing at the time for something to help me and this is what came up.

IMO it's about intuition. And ears. Neither of which will you get from the Roger Love book.

And here's some interersting food for thought, chess: How many REALLY good singers do YOU know personally that claim to have learned primarily from a book/tape/cd? I don't know of any, myself. The truly good singers I have come in contact with in my travels ALL have studied with singing teachers. Live ones.

LOL,
jerry
 
Jerry,
Your theories seem to be (pardon the pun) sound, and I'm gonna have to hit the search button to read about that 'clearing' technique.

-BUT-

Here's my angle. I'm not a great singer. I'm not sure if I'm even a good singer. I'm definitely not a great mixing engineer. I'm not sure if I'm even a good mixing engineer. Part of the greatness of this place, is that it is all about DIY. Hell, if I can figure it out here, I don't even get a book. What I read and learn here makes my mixing improve.

I'm certain that I will not become a great singer by learning from a book. However, I neither have the time nor the money for vocal instructions. I'm hoping that I can improve, and possibly not learn as many bad habits, if I try to study with what is within my means.

I'd still like to hear your opinions, just like I love to read Bruce's soapbox rants about mastering. I learn something from reading each of these posts, and they give me some perspective, as well as some goals.

Queue
 
If my voice chair is correct, he said that Domingo studied for five good years from the age of 20-25 before beginning his career.

Also pavarotti said that it took him a long time(even after he was a proffesional singer) to get the concept of diaphragmatic control. You can be sure that he did not master it by himself.

Chessparov. I like your idea of joining a singing group and learing from people better than you. The concept of many successful church singers makes sense, even though it might also have something to do with the fact that they started very young.
 
Hey guys if we get more people on this (meant in a good way), this IS
the singers forum!

Jerry, as they say "everything is relative". When I was taking lessons from
an operatic baritone, we determined that I had enough talent to consider
a career as a lyric baritone (along with non-solicited comments from
professional level students already performing in European opera houses).
For sake of example, this was primarily based on tone quality and the
size of my voice (nickname-"Megathroat" in Jr. High-not meant as a
compliment!) I still would need to complete at least a year of study to
start having a decent vibrato and to make proper breathing a habit.
You're right that not many singers use or admit to use books/cd's as a
training method. It does, however, provide some structure for a student.
The "small and thin"is typical when you are starting to develop a "mix"
of your head tones (not falsetto!) and chest voice. Even Pavoratti had to
go though it for about 4 years, based on his autobiography. He also had
a terrific coach who first worked on securing his range between low b flat
and high b flat. Placido Domingo used an elastic belt around his waist and
he felt it helped him to breathe better for singing when he was starting
out. Again, for legitimate/classical/operatic singers planning on a
professional career, a singing master's ear is essential. For someone with
a pleasant and/or interesting voice on up who wants to sing popular
music (fairly) on key to entertain others it's not as crucial.
You may want to check out a book called "Great Singers on Great Singing"
by Jerome Hines. A number of Metropoliton opera singers talk about using
tape recorders to improve their singing, among other "great stuff"!

Queue, I remember when I asked Horst Gunter, famous baritone from
Germany, how long he was a student. His reply was "I still am".
So you definitely have the right attitude about this.

Cyan, my voice coach is good buddies with Placido, so my info was based
partly on that, and Placido's autobiography.

P.S. Many opera fans including myself believe the two greatest tenors of
all time for Italian opera were Enrico Caruso and Beniamino Gigli,
and the greatest Wagnerian tenor was Lauritz Melchior.
If you ever want to hear what the human voice is capable of,
listen to those guys!
 
Of course there are many approaches, chess. And DIY is fine, perhaps, Queue-- just not for me, not for singing.

One of the biggest supporters of the very bad idea of learning to sing from a book/tape set was Seth Riggs, one of the most famous teachers in the world, who by the way taught Roger Love. I personally studied for about eight months with another 'Riggs approved' speech-level associate teacher (by phone! -- and don't ask!). The point is now-a-days, all these folks will begrudgingly admit the same thing: they were wrong, and that you just can't learn to sing without a live teacher.

I really have to stick to my guns on this one guys: If you want to sing, if you really want to sing, swallow your pride, bite the bullet, pull your head out of your rump, get yourself a GOOD teacher, and put your COMPLETE trust in that person-- I guarantee you this is by FAR the fastest way to progress, regardless of singing style.

Sure, it's fun to learn from CDs/ books. I can pick up a tip here and there. Try it out. Surf the web on vocal technique. There's that Don Quixote kind of glory feeling when you discover something new that really seems to work. It's all very gratifying.

But here's the question you need to ask yourself: 2 years down the road where will I have ended up? Think about it. A good teacher will FORCE you in a direction you will NEVER have ended up heading in on your own, CD or not.

But you do what you want. A few years down the road we shall hear what tune you're singing.

LOL,
jk
 
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