ATR Magnetics + RMGI SM900?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lo.fi.love
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lo.fi.love

lo.fi.love

Functionally obsessed.
Hey folks!

It's been a long time since I've really been active here. My equipment is almost completely set up in my new apartment after tearing it apart three months ago for my move. Oh, it feels great to make music again! The hiatus really helped clear my mind, though!

I recently had my Otari set up for +9 operation and I'm really digging on ATR Magnetics tape. I'm curious about RMGI SM900, too, and I've never tried it before.

Does anyone here have experience with both? How would you compare the two??

Thanks! I look forward to hearing opinions on this one.
Jeff
 
Hey Jeff what made you try the ATR? I'm happy to know you like it.
 
dodgeaspen said:
Hey Jeff what made you try the ATR? I'm happy to know you like it.
Click to expand...

It's a fantastic product! I tried it out of curiosity. I had my Otari half-track deck set up for +9 operation and I figured it was a perfect excuse to see what all the fuss was about re: ATR tape.

If I had some extra cash I'd order a reel of SM900, but my bank balance hasn't been the same since I moved to the Big City. Man, Oakland was way cheaper!
 
never tried either but the 900 would compress/saturate faster. i believe atr is +12 tape but people use it +6 and +9, which would make it more linear. 911 would saturate pretty fast at +9 !

i use scotch 202 ('60s "0" level tape) on my ampex 440 at +3 ... which would be kinda like using 406 at +6 or 456/911 at +9.

so i guess what i'm saying is ... i like doing the opposite! using the lower level tape than the deck is set for. then again i like some hiss and distortion, this is a good way to get it. you have a lot of control this way ... turn the level down for more hiss, turn the level up for more distortion! it would pretty hard to get hiss or distortion at +12 !

PS - i'm referring to mixdown, i use a teac 80-8 w/ 456, set for +6 for multi-track .
 
Not sure if this helps much...I've never used ATR but I buy the RMGi SM911 and I really like it. The first thing I noticed when I started buying from RMGi (I use to use a bunch of old BASF tapes, and as you may know RMGi took over BASFs 911 formula) was that I was EQing less because the sounds were a little more where I wanted them to be right off the bat. Specifically in the lo mid muddy areas.

I know maybe 3-5 years ago a lot of people were having really bad shedding issues (i can't verify this because I was 13 at the time :rolleyes:) but it seems they've sorted things out because I've order a few of their new reels and have never had a single issue. I would give it a shot, try it out, unless your gonna buy 2" then you gotta do some more research cuz thats a pretty heavy investment!

-Barrett
 
ATR tape isn't really "rated" +3/+6/+9/+whatever but if you look at the spec sheets it equates to about +11.

Everybody take note that not all machines have bias amplifiers that can properly bias even +9 tape, and even if they do the electronics may not be able to push levels to tape high enough to saturate the tape before they themselves start clipping...clipping electronics do not sound as nice as saturating tape IMO.

The advantage to super high output tape like +9 and ATR tape is that the tape can handle higher levels before saturating and this means you can get a CLEAN signal that is further away from the noise floor of the tape. What I'm saying is that, IMO, ATR tape and +9 tape makes more sense for somebody recording a string ensemble than it does for somebody recording a power trio. You might like the saturation effects for the power trio and the tape's noise floor is not typically as much a concern with less dynamic louder source material...+6 or even +3 tape may make more sense for that type of material as you have more control over saturation level without stressing the electronics.

This is backwards from what seems to be the general ideology which is to get higher rated tape for louder less dynamic source material...slam the tape/push it to the red/bury the meters, etc. Worse yet people will do this with noise reduction engaged.

That being said, I bought two pancakes awhile back of SM900 to use with my BR-20T because I don't plan on using noise reduction so I wanted to push the nominal level a bit to stay further away from the noise floor, but I also want to keep it fairly clean because I'm using it for mastering and I figure I want to get my saturation effects during tracking and get a good clean master.

I really like how it sounds, though I haven't done a proper biasing yet, but what I've heard of it sounds very nice.

My tune has shifted a little since I got 2 cases of NOS GP9 for $30 so I'll be setting it up for that, but I expect it to be quite similar in sound as well as the setup.

Never tried ATR tape but I hear great things about it and someday I might.

Just think about your intentions and reasons when selecting tape. That cool vibe you are getting might be your electronics going "pleeeeeeeeez ssssssssstop....ssssssssstop!!! :eek:" while you try and push +9 tape into saturation when instead you might hit +3 or +6 tape with lower levels and start hearing the real deal, and your electronics will thank you.

My 2p/food for though/something to chew on.
 
sweetbeats said:
ATR tape isn't really "rated" +3/+6/+9/+whatever but if you look at the spec sheets it equates to about +11.

Everybody take note that not all machines have bias amplifiers that can properly bias even +9 tape, and even if they do the electronics may not be able to push levels to tape high enough to saturate the tape before they themselves start clipping...clipping electronics do not sound as nice as saturating tape IMO.

The advantage to super high output tape like +9 and ATR tape is that the tape can handle higher levels before saturating and this means you can get a CLEAN signal that is further away from the noise floor of the tape. What I'm saying is that, IMO, ATR tape and +9 tape makes more sense for somebody recording a string ensemble than it does for somebody recording a power trio. You might like the saturation effects for the power trio and the tape's noise floor is not typically as much a concern with less dynamic louder source material...+6 or even +3 tape may make more sense for that type of material as you have more control over saturation level without stressing the electronics.

This is backwards from what seems to be the general ideology which is to get higher rated tape for louder less dynamic source material...slam the tape/push it to the red/bury the meters, etc. Worse yet people will do this with noise reduction engaged.

That being said, I bought two pancakes awhile back of SM900 to use with my BR-20T because I don't plan on using noise reduction so I wanted to push the nominal level a bit to stay further away from the noise floor, but I also want to keep it fairly clean because I'm using it for mastering and I figure I want to get my saturation effects during tracking and get a good clean master.

I really like how it sounds, though I haven't done a proper biasing yet, but what I've heard of it sounds very nice.

My tune has shifted a little since I got 2 cases of NOS GP9 for $30 so I'll be setting it up for that, but I expect it to be quite similar in sound as well as the setup.

Never tried ATR tape but I hear great things about it and someday I might.

Just think about your intentions and reasons when selecting tape. That cool vibe you are getting might be your electronics going "pleeeeeeeeez ssssssssstop....ssssssssstop!!! :eek:" while you try and push +9 tape into saturation when instead you might hit +3 or +6 tape with lower levels and start hearing the real deal, and your electronics will thank you.

My 2p/food for though/something to chew on.
Click to expand...

you said it man (better than i !) ...

don't forget about "0" level tape!!! scotch 111 is regarded as the most trouble-free tape of all time ... produced 1949-1971 or so ... in fact, many of the earliest ampex decks will not bias properly to anything else without mods. most decks were designed around this tape until the '60s (including consumer decks that don't even have bias adjustments).
in all honesty though, the "0" tapes do distort more than saturate, but it is a sound in and of itself.
 
I really thought hard about leaving "0" tape out...and you are right. It really should be included. It is most certainly an option to consider.

Thanks for adding it to the bunch. ;)
 
"0" is the sound of rock n roll (and every other form of music) until 1969! its true!
 
I'm considering a higher-output tape because I'm doing a lot of quieter stuff these days. I'm pretty sure I need to recalibrate my 48, but I've been having a heck of a time keeping noise under control. I love using ATR at +9 on my Otari mixdown deck because it's SO DARN QUIET! And it can handle a wide dynamic range without having to use dbx (although I have it hooked up to a dbx unit for echo while tracking... makes the echo really nice and noise-free).

I'm just about at my wits' end here. I love 456/SM911 but noise is becoming an issue as I'm working on quieter/more delicate pieces. I'm really considering calibrating my 48 for +9 operation on ATR tape, DESPITE the warnings to not do so. I want really clean recordings, and I'm not relying on tape saturation for aesthetic effect.

I dunno. I see several MS16 and ATR-60-16 machines for sale online, calibrated for +9 operation, and so I suspect that I might have success calibrating my deck for +9 operation.

Given my situation, would anyone here discourage me from setting my 48 at +9? I need something to keep me from upgrading to a 1" 8-track :)
 
A 1" 8-track won't be any quieter unless you're running at 30ips...it depends a lot on the tape, the electronics and the setup.

Jeff, you'll have to see if the 48 bias amps will bias +9 tape. The 58 can't, which is a little earlier than the 48, but the MS-16 also can't in stock trim and that was intoduced at about the same time. There is a pretty simple mod for the 58 and MS-16 amp cards to properly bias +9 tape...those use the same cards and I don't know about the 48 amp cards. I wouldn't be able to figure it out, somebody her might be able to if you try it and it doesn't work. On the 58 and MS-16 it is a matter of a cap value that is changed which opens the path up for the bias amp, like increasing carburetor throat or a fuel injection throttle body area. The question then that comes into play is whether or not that allows the bias amps to work too hard and shorten their life but I think that concern is more or less mitigated at this point because enough people have tried the mod with success.

evm1024 in particular did this to his MS-16 and his 58. I recall he posted some detail on the mod in his MS-16 story thread.

Jeff, just to be clear, I'm not trying to "warn" anybody not to use +9 tape or try it on their decks. I just have some passion about trying to turn the tide of what I perceive to be a general misperception of why one might choose +9 tape over +6/+3/+0 and how to take advantage of the different formulations and why. And I'm not assuming that you have that misperception...quite the opposite. Most importantly you've had a chance to try it out on your halftrack and you like it and that's the bottom line and every reason to try it out in other areas...

Hmmm...let me see herrrre.... . . .
 
Okay...

On the 58 and MS-16 the bias level is trimmed by a variable resistor followed by a 100pF film cap (C42). The mod is to increase the value of C42 to about 200pF. ethyrvalve used a 180pF part which worked just fine according to a post by him in Ethan's MS-16 thread.

In looking at the 48 I recall now that the bias amps are on two separate cards (4 amps each for the 8 tracks) instead of on each rec/play amp card. The bias amp circuit is similar but instead of a variable resistor and fixed cap it looks like they used just a variable capacitor, which is C004 on the bias amp cards...are there four C004's on each card? One for each of the 4 amps? You'd have to look, but the component in that position is what you may want to look at if the 48 can't properly muster enough bias for +9 tape because the stock max value of C004 is 100pF...I'd look to find a part with an approximate max of 200pF, but I suggest you get a second opinion on that before taking my word okay?

Jeff, give it a shot box stock first as it may work. I don't know the particulars but I can only assume that the use of a single variable cap vs a variable resistor and fixed cap in that trim loop would be more efficient and maybe the 48 can do it.

Let us know. This would be good information.

[EDIT]

I can't remember...did you get a spare bias amp card or two in that bundle of parts I sold to you with the 48? If so you could always mod one of those amp channels and try that too.
 
sweetbeats said:
[EDIT]

I can't remember...did you get a spare bias amp card or two in that bundle of parts I sold to you with the 48? If so you could always mod one of those amp channels and try that too.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure... that box has been sitting in my closet(s) since you shipped the deck to me. I'll look into it.

By the way, I've found various ways to make SM911 work better for me. I'll chalk it up in part to my inexperience in recording / mixing, since I spent most of the past two years working on equipment instead of honing my technique. I would still LOVE to have quieter recordings, in regard to hiss, but many of the problems I had were solved with better micing and by improving my tracking, mixing, and bouncing techniques. There's still a noticeable hiss but it's much quieter / more manageable than before.

I still want to try a +9 tape on the 48, though ;) I've found that ATR is great for making as "perfect" a copy as possible, when tape saturation isn't desired; it's great for final mixes and bounce mixes. But I'd be interested to try SM900 for tracking and use its ability to saturate for taming transients, smoothing out vocals, etc.
 
Well let us know if you can bias it. That would be good info to have.
 
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