Asking insight from members on my rebuild treatment options.
- Thread starter jimmys69
- Start date
jimmys69
MOODerator
All rooms 8' 4" to subfloor above. 10" joists. Only the room with the desk has drywall above. Not even sure I care to have that there.
This is all about making the space the best it can be now. I already have my ideas and thoughts on what I am going to do, but totally open to any ideas and thoughts.
I could care less about sound isolation from above. Dogs can go outside, my daughter and wife usually know what 'shh' means. lol They respect that.
All the exterior walls are 8.5" of concrete except for the 2 - 1.5 x 3' windows and the 3 x 4' window behind the desk that I am sealing off.
One thing I am not sure about is running of cable between isolation rooms. I have heard of running PVC pipe with angles between floor and ceiling to allow 'fishing' of new cable with minimal sound transmission, but haven't found anything that really verified that. Obviously I do not want to permanently foam in a snake that may someday need repair.
I am not looking for extreme reduction in sound levels between isolation rooms. My vocal room plan involves metal stud framing on each side of the foundation counter-fort, with 4 layers of 5/8' drywall and two fire doors between it and the control room with a 3 layer glass viewing window. I already had the window built. Two 1/4" laminated with 1/2" air gap and 3/8" on the other side. That should give estimated 60dB reduction. That is fine for me.
How much Roxul is 'too much' in the vocal room 'booth'? I am thinking it could never be enough. But, if that is overkill...Maybe just fiberglass on a couple walls? Maybe bass traps in there? I am just used to recording vocals in the treated control room. Never tried an isolation room. Not this size.
For my control room (above desk), I am thinking of 2" Roxul between the joists above up to the last foot at each side. Then 4" thick at 90 degree angle to act as bass trapping at the top corners.
All to be covered with cloth.
Also thinking of building a wall behind the desk with a bottom plate at the bottom parallel to the wall, and top plate curving inward at the left and right 18". I built similar in a friends studio years ago and that seemed to work well. But he was in a situation where he had only 15' between his desk and the back wall. He and the studio building engineer that recommended this were trying to eliminate close proximity reflections. And it really looked friggen cool...
Anyway, if anyone has ideas, options or questions, I would love to hear them! I'm not doing this again and wish to make the best of this. I hope to learn from this and hopefully give insight to others after it is done.
I have a 8 year warranty on my foundation. Shit better not fall in...
This is all about making the space the best it can be now. I already have my ideas and thoughts on what I am going to do, but totally open to any ideas and thoughts.
I could care less about sound isolation from above. Dogs can go outside, my daughter and wife usually know what 'shh' means. lol They respect that.
All the exterior walls are 8.5" of concrete except for the 2 - 1.5 x 3' windows and the 3 x 4' window behind the desk that I am sealing off. One thing I am not sure about is running of cable between isolation rooms. I have heard of running PVC pipe with angles between floor and ceiling to allow 'fishing' of new cable with minimal sound transmission, but haven't found anything that really verified that. Obviously I do not want to permanently foam in a snake that may someday need repair.
I am not looking for extreme reduction in sound levels between isolation rooms. My vocal room plan involves metal stud framing on each side of the foundation counter-fort, with 4 layers of 5/8' drywall and two fire doors between it and the control room with a 3 layer glass viewing window. I already had the window built. Two 1/4" laminated with 1/2" air gap and 3/8" on the other side. That should give estimated 60dB reduction. That is fine for me.
How much Roxul is 'too much' in the vocal room 'booth'? I am thinking it could never be enough. But, if that is overkill...Maybe just fiberglass on a couple walls? Maybe bass traps in there? I am just used to recording vocals in the treated control room. Never tried an isolation room. Not this size.
For my control room (above desk), I am thinking of 2" Roxul between the joists above up to the last foot at each side. Then 4" thick at 90 degree angle to act as bass trapping at the top corners.
All to be covered with cloth.
Also thinking of building a wall behind the desk with a bottom plate at the bottom parallel to the wall, and top plate curving inward at the left and right 18". I built similar in a friends studio years ago and that seemed to work well. But he was in a situation where he had only 15' between his desk and the back wall. He and the studio building engineer that recommended this were trying to eliminate close proximity reflections. And it really looked friggen cool...
Anyway, if anyone has ideas, options or questions, I would love to hear them! I'm not doing this again and wish to make the best of this. I hope to learn from this and hopefully give insight to others after it is done.
I have a 8 year warranty on my foundation. Shit better not fall in...
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yes...it's a crappy drawing and vague description... 
...but based on what I could make out, it looks like you have some decent space to work with, and if your foundation problems are 100% behind you...then go to town with the studio rebuild. I think you have several ways you can go.
Do you really feel the need to break it up into all those smaller isolation rooms?
Hey...you know best the kind of work you usually do, and what kind of plans you have for future work once it's rebuilt...so if that's what works for you..it doesn't look like a bad plan. it's all about what you prefer.
For me...I'm a space junkie...
...I mean, I would love having one decent isolated room for whatever...but I'm not sure I would ever need that many separate isolation rooms to be used at the same time.
IOW...f you have a band, maybe you isolate the drums...but then I (and that's just me) would rather have the guitars and the rest of the band in a bigger open room, and then break that up with gobos and such.
Likewise....in most cases, the lead vocals would be done later, as an overdub, in the same one iso rooom...so I guess I just don't see simultaneously needing to put the vocalist in one room, the drummer in another, the guitar in a third room..etc.
More open space to me is also a nicer vibe, rather than everyone compartmentalized and sealed off.
One nice isolation room for when it's needed...but a wide open control/mix room, where you can also record in, and everyone is there, mixing it up...making eye contact...etc.
Like I said...that's just me.
You know your situation best, and your prefs...so go with your gut...and good luck, I'm sure with that space, no matter how you lay it out, it will be a fantastic recording studio.
...but based on what I could make out, it looks like you have some decent space to work with, and if your foundation problems are 100% behind you...then go to town with the studio rebuild. I think you have several ways you can go.
Do you really feel the need to break it up into all those smaller isolation rooms?
Hey...you know best the kind of work you usually do, and what kind of plans you have for future work once it's rebuilt...so if that's what works for you..it doesn't look like a bad plan. it's all about what you prefer.
For me...I'm a space junkie...
...I mean, I would love having one decent isolated room for whatever...but I'm not sure I would ever need that many separate isolation rooms to be used at the same time. IOW...f you have a band, maybe you isolate the drums...but then I (and that's just me) would rather have the guitars and the rest of the band in a bigger open room, and then break that up with gobos and such.
Likewise....in most cases, the lead vocals would be done later, as an overdub, in the same one iso rooom...so I guess I just don't see simultaneously needing to put the vocalist in one room, the drummer in another, the guitar in a third room..etc.
More open space to me is also a nicer vibe, rather than everyone compartmentalized and sealed off.
One nice isolation room for when it's needed...but a wide open control/mix room, where you can also record in, and everyone is there, mixing it up...making eye contact...etc.
Like I said...that's just me.
You know your situation best, and your prefs...so go with your gut...and good luck, I'm sure with that space, no matter how you lay it out, it will be a fantastic recording studio.
jimmys69
MOODerator
Sorry for the shitty drawing..
Yes, I also agree with the 'big room' theory but even with the crappy drawing, it clearly shows that that is the space I have to deal with. Even with repaired falling concrete walls, I can't make any of the rooms larger. The stairs are where they are. The concrete walls are what they are.
Yes, I do have a reason to break up the rooms into separate 'isolation' rooms. That is the only thing that makes sense. Not only from the way I record bands, but from the way the layout of the space gives me opportunity to do.
I have a quite conveniently long control room and drum room. Wish I had more height...But there is no way to combine them or the rooms off to the side.
Symmetry in a mixing room is my first goal. And that is actually what I am able to do now.
And yes, I do things differently from you. Drums are recorded in an isolated room with video monitoring from the control room. Big/loud PA system in the control room where every other musician is in when tracking drums. All tracks/instruments recorded. Maybe the guitars isolated, maybe not. Direct bass usually. It all gets re-recorded anyway on most projects.
But, now I get to have the ability of treating each room for the particular needs/best use of space for each. This also includes my control room.
I will say I find your response in giving your suggestion of how you like to do things really off topic, as it is obvious that this is not adjustable in my situation. Sorry if I am being a dick, but your response was not very helpful to anyone other than yourself talking about what you like for yourself.
Thanks for the support though! Seriously, thanks!
Yes, I also agree with the 'big room' theory but even with the crappy drawing, it clearly shows that that is the space I have to deal with. Even with repaired falling concrete walls, I can't make any of the rooms larger. The stairs are where they are. The concrete walls are what they are.
Yes, I do have a reason to break up the rooms into separate 'isolation' rooms. That is the only thing that makes sense. Not only from the way I record bands, but from the way the layout of the space gives me opportunity to do.
I have a quite conveniently long control room and drum room. Wish I had more height...But there is no way to combine them or the rooms off to the side.
Symmetry in a mixing room is my first goal. And that is actually what I am able to do now.
And yes, I do things differently from you. Drums are recorded in an isolated room with video monitoring from the control room. Big/loud PA system in the control room where every other musician is in when tracking drums. All tracks/instruments recorded. Maybe the guitars isolated, maybe not. Direct bass usually. It all gets re-recorded anyway on most projects.
But, now I get to have the ability of treating each room for the particular needs/best use of space for each. This also includes my control room.
I will say I find your response in giving your suggestion of how you like to do things really off topic, as it is obvious that this is not adjustable in my situation. Sorry if I am being a dick, but your response was not very helpful to anyone other than yourself talking about what you like for yourself.
Thanks for the support though!
Seriously, thanks!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Hey...I couldn't quite make out your exact space...what was interior walls, what was exterior walls from that drawing...so I just said that I would go for a bigger open space if possible...and I explained why, because I wanted you to understand where I was coming from.
Yes...I was saying that's how I like things. I mean I can't very well say how you would like things.
Besides...I said, you probably know best what works for you.
Isn't that what you wanted, people's insight on building options...but now you say, you have no options because that's the only way you can do it and it's not adjustable.
So then WTF did you want...people to tell you where to put the fucking lava lamp?
Anyway...you got more space to work with than I do, so go build something nice and get back to the music....you're too grumpy.
Yes...I was saying that's how I like things. I mean I can't very well say how you would like things.
Besides...I said, you probably know best what works for you.
Isn't that what you wanted, people's insight on building options...but now you say, you have no options because that's the only way you can do it and it's not adjustable.
So then WTF did you want...people to tell you where to put the fucking lava lamp?
Anyway...you got more space to work with than I do, so go build something nice and get back to the music....you're too grumpy.
jimmys69
MOODerator
Hey...I couldn't quite make out your exact space...what was interior walls, what was exterior walls from that drawing...so I just said that I would go for a bigger open space if possible...and I explained why, because I wanted you to understand where I was coming from.
Yes...I was saying that's how I like things. I mean I can't very well say how you would like things.
Besides...I said, you probably know best what works for you.
Isn't that what you wanted, people's insight on building options...but now you say, you have no options because that's the only way you can do it and it's not adjustable.
So then WTF did you want...people to tell you where to put the fucking lava lamp?
Anyway...you got more space to work with than I do, so go build something nice and get back to the music....you're too grumpy.
Um, yes I'm grumpy. My cave has been severely compromised...
I think you misunderstood me, and obviously I was not clear and the drawing is my assuming anyone knows that everything to the left of the stairs (including the wall to the left of my desk location) has no walls yet. They had to be removed in order to fix the foundation. Including the bathroom (except for the toilet as I didn't want the laborers shitting in my upstairs bathroom). Well, except for the ones that are labelled as 'concrete'. By 'building' I meant I need to construct new walls, isolation, and acoustic treatment for that side of the space. I am stressed the fuck out over this so my bad completely for thinking others would know WTF I am dealing with.
Sorry Miro..
What I am looking for is advice on treatment and build of the new walls and treating them.
Basically, this crappy drawing is a first sketch of what I plan to do there. Need to rebuild the bathroom and laundry/utility room, and wall to the let of my desk that will have the 3 layer window to what will be my new Vocal Room. Plan on every wall/ceiling filled with rockwool though I wonder if the pink shit is adequate. I emailed JH Brandt and offered to pay him but got no response.
New 200 amp breaker box is being installed next week. It will have designated/isolated ground with shielded conduit for the basement/studio wiring.
I'm attaching pix that show the intrusive 'counterforts' that had to be built to hold the North wall.
Initially I had my desk on the South end of the room that I show in the drawing the desk on the North side. Because the original space had two 'wings' at the North side, that was the best placement to keep centered in the space. But that had the impossible to move Drum Room door right in the corner. I had placed a moveable 7.7'x2'x4" bass trap panel there behind the desk. Pain in the ass. Now that I have lost space with the counterforts (angled 3"x4" steel beams and loss of the existing walls) I now am making better use of the room by setting up the desk on the North side where they are. The squiggly lines on the North side in my shitty drawing are the placement of those. Hope any of this makes sense. Maybe the pix will help. My desk and monitor stands will make best use of this space.
My 'Drum Room' already has rockwool in the ceiling. The 'Guitar Room' is already treated with rockwool and pink stuff. I already have 12 2'x4'x4" hang able panels and two 7.5'x2'x4" corner traps that can be placed anywhere. Side reflection points and such. I plan to stuff the ceiling above my new desk location so that I do not need a cloud hanging. I plan to cover most of the new treated walls and ceiling with cloth.
The pix will hopefully make that more clear as the purple box fan is in the window of the prospected 'Vocal Room' in each.
Again, I apologize for assuming anyone knows what the fuck I am talking about....
Attachments
jimmys69
MOODerator
Pix loaded out of order. The third one shows where my desk will be placed. Between the fan and the vacuum will be my seating position. Just to the left of the center counterfort. My poor toes....I had them modify that one to give me 6"" more space so I don't break a toe. Oddly I am happy that I will have the access behind my gear to wire and fiddle with shit.
If anyone actually looks at this crap and gives advice, thank you so much!
I am exited to rebuild, but at the same time frustrated and annoyed that I have to... Hope that makes sense.
If anyone actually looks at this crap and gives advice, thank you so much!
I am exited to rebuild, but at the same time frustrated and annoyed that I have to... Hope that makes sense.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Um, yes I'm grumpy. My cave has been severely compromised...
I know...it really sucks, I know.
So the drawing...is that what is all there now, or what you will end up with?
I was just trying to get a clear sense of what will all be your available space.
If the layout in your drawing is it, and that's what really works for you and that's the only way it can be...then I guess we don't need to even talk about the layout, and I assume you then are only asking about how best to treat the walls and such...?
Like I said...you've got a lot of studio space to work with, and when finished, it will be great...so don't stress about that.
I think the concrete walls are going to be your main focus. I mean...sure, you can just trap the shit out of everything, but I guess the questions is...will you be first finishing those walls and then focusing on acoustic treatment or do you want the acoustic treatment to begin at the concrete walls?
The real acoustic pros here would be the ones to give you those answers to start. I think with all that concrete, you will need some layers...but, at least they will help with separating the different rooms and sounds.
You will also need to consider cabling...both electric and audio...and tying it all together at your main control/mix space.
What about any sort of HVAC...etc...?
I guess it's also about how much $$$ you can throw at the studio rebuild AFA how deep you can get into it.
I think you standing in the space are probably able to make the best decisions. Drawings and pic don't say the same thing.
Your previous studio setup was beautiful...so go with your gut...you know what you are doing.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I never even saw that post. I saw your third post...but must have scrolled past the second, thinking it was the first, which I already read.
TBH...how much Roxul and stud construction and all that...it's not something I could weigh in on with anything more than "common sense" perspective. I mean...AFA tech specs on what to use and how much, you really need one of the acoustic pros around here to chime in...or as you say, just stuff the shit out of it, but I never thought that to be the best approach either.
I was never into the wall-to-wall traps thing that I see some people suggest and/or do.
I think a mix of surfaces can get you decent acoustics without that 100% dead sound...though maybe for the booths, dead is good.
That's kinda where my comments of the more open spaces stem from....you can get away with less than dead in them...IMO.
AFA the cabling. I've used PVC between rooms, and then after the cable was run, I stuffed the ends shut...foam, cloth, Roxul...whatever. I think the sound transmission between rooms is going to be elsewhere if it exists, and potentially more the issue than in any PVC channels. Maybe also wrap the PVC, depending how long the runs, so it doesn't act like a big didgeridoo.
If you shoot for like, real pro studio build/treatment...you might find it too demanding for an already built house. IOW, go for what you can do best that fits your plans and budget...and you will probably still end up with a very decent studio setup...but don't lose your mind over it...though it's kinda your call how nuts you want to go.
And yes...I'm your only buddy here.
mjbphotos
Moderator
The PVC pipe idea sounds good for running cables. Use 45 degree bends rather than 90 degree - it'll make it easier for snaking the cables through. In fact, when cementing the pipe together (don't rely on press-fit, use a little PVC cement on each joint), run a snake wire (these are what electricians use to run wires through walls - not your audio snake!) through each pipe run, leave them in place. When you need to put a new cable in, tie it to one end of the snake wire AND tie another snake wire to it, so that when you've pulled the new cable through, you've still got a snake wire for the next time.
jimmys69
MOODerator
Great idea bro! Thanks!
Obi-Wan zenabI
New member
Yes...it's a crappy drawing and vague description...
...but based on what I could make out, it looks like you have some decent space to work with, and if your foundation problems are 100% behind you...then go to town with the studio rebuild. I think you have several ways you can go.
Do you really feel the need to break it up into all those smaller isolation rooms?
Hey...you know best the kind of work you usually do, and what kind of plans you have for future work once it's rebuilt...so if that's what works for you..it doesn't look like a bad plan. it's all about what you prefer.
For me...I'm a space junkie...
IOW...f you have a band, maybe you isolate the drums...but then I (and that's just me) would rather have the guitars and the rest of the band in a bigger open room, and then break that up with gobos and such.
Likewise....in most cases, the lead vocals would be done later, as an overdub, in the same one iso rooom...so I guess I just don't see simultaneously needing to put the vocalist in one room, the drummer in another, the guitar in a third room..etc.
More open space to me is also a nicer vibe, rather than everyone compartmentalized and sealed off.
One nice isolation room for when it's needed...but a wide open control/mix room, where you can also record in, and everyone is there, mixing it up...making eye contact...etc.
Like I said...that's just me.
You know your situation best, and your prefs...so go with your gut...and good luck, I'm sure with that space, no matter how you lay it out, it will be a fantastic recording studio.
Jimmy, you could put the mix space in what is now the drum room and set up the band across the space that is now the three isolation rooms, or have enough window between the isolation rooms that the band can see each other as they play. I think that is what I would think about doing.