dr.colossus
New member
that there, just above this, thats ART, nice work vurt
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EndlessCoda
New member
Quote from brandon.w:
"I think an artist creates. creates something that will inspire, or envoke other emotions and connect with people on a basic human level through a not-so-basic medium.
It's amazing to think most of the people winning awards and esteme for being such great artists hardly do anything. does coming into a studio with musicians who have written "your" song for you and nailing the vocals really artistry? I think not. "
Question: Using your definition of artist, does someone playing the cello in the Boston Symphony Orchestra for the last five years qualify as an artist?
"I think an artist creates. creates something that will inspire, or envoke other emotions and connect with people on a basic human level through a not-so-basic medium.
It's amazing to think most of the people winning awards and esteme for being such great artists hardly do anything. does coming into a studio with musicians who have written "your" song for you and nailing the vocals really artistry? I think not. "
Question: Using your definition of artist, does someone playing the cello in the Boston Symphony Orchestra for the last five years qualify as an artist?
V
Vurt
New member
EndlessCoda said:
No. Does the ability to recite hundreds of OSHA regulations word-for-word make me an artist? No.
I'm going to Vegas now. See ya'll later!
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EndlessCoda
New member
Vurt said:
I see your point. Oh wait...no I don't.
Put a hundred on black 13 for me.
<-peace->
B
brandon.w
New member
Answer: no, using my system of identifying artists, they would not be. Doesn't make them untalented, and they COULD be artists, but as long as they're NOT writing, I don't consider them artists. I mean, I'm not saying performers are any less talented, but I believe as long as they don't create they are NOT artists...and as far as brittney spears and mandy moore are concerned, they MAY be "artists" now that they write SOME of the lyrics on THEIR album...but I wonder why THEY are more popular then a truly talented band that wrote every tiny sound on the album...but certain reflections have rendered the answer...as a rule...people in general are fickle and not very bright.
Roel
That SMART guy.
Jee Brandon. So perfomance is not an art???
That's sad. You only see the material side of art. Just because you can't touch it/see it/feel it doesn't mean it's not art. A classical performance is just playing a score. Sure. Ever tried it?? There's ALOT you can do with a score. Alot cannot be written on it, and is left to the interpretation of the performer. Some arts ARE about performance.
For instance, jazz artists. They are creating, right? Improvising is creating. Well. I play both jazz and classical, and I don't have the feeling that a score is limiting my freedom. After all, jazz has a progression to follow. Classical has a more limiting score, but there are alot more/different parameters to play with...
That's sad. You only see the material side of art. Just because you can't touch it/see it/feel it doesn't mean it's not art. A classical performance is just playing a score. Sure. Ever tried it?? There's ALOT you can do with a score. Alot cannot be written on it, and is left to the interpretation of the performer. Some arts ARE about performance.
For instance, jazz artists. They are creating, right? Improvising is creating. Well. I play both jazz and classical, and I don't have the feeling that a score is limiting my freedom. After all, jazz has a progression to follow. Classical has a more limiting score, but there are alot more/different parameters to play with...
laj35
New member
This is definitely a tough issue to argue. I am definitely of the opinion that Pop Music sucks, I hear what some are saying about it being what 13 year olds can relate to, but this is what scares me the most. I think music is a direct reflection of society in general, obviously as Pop music is a large part of what defines Pop-culture. Society(I speak mainly of the US as I'm admitedly ignorant to the state of Pop culture anywhere else, though I doubt it's much better) wants more glitz and glammor, style over substance. The reason a 13 year old can't relate to radiohead is because they tap into real emotions, scary, real shit that's going on in the world and within each and every one of ourselves. It's not always fun to think about the way the world operates, or even the state of your own life. NSYNC/Britney aren't going to challenge you in any respect, they just allow instant gratification. It takes work, which results in true reward, to fully appreciate music. You have to invest some of yourself to get anything back. This is what the apathetic, lazy nature of Pop-Culture can't do. You can argue this all day but what really do these bubble gummers bring to the table, what do they make kids think about: not the state of the world, not the state of themselves. While I enjoy seeing Britney posing half-naked on stage what good does that do for a 9 year old girl. And perhaps the argument will be that kids shouldn't have to think about anything important, well I think that's bullshit. The less people know of themselves, the worse off we all are. This isn't only taking place in music either, kinda off the topic but, take for instance pro sports (In US again). It's all about crazy dunks, home runs, instant gratification. Meanwhile all the dudes who can do the nasty dunks are smokin crack and beating up their girls. What can any of us do to change this, well that's where I have no clue. Thom would say "If you try your children will be next" or "Be Productive" or "Immerse Your Soul in Love", Britney would probably say "Like I Dunno", but hey what the hell do I know.
Laj
Laj
Roktuk
God Bless The Apocalypse
laj35 
All you guys are takin the "art" part too seriously. Just because art can't be defined, doesn't mean it has a boundless definition.
All you guys are takin the "art" part too seriously. Just because art can't be defined, doesn't mean it has a boundless definition.
Eurythmic
majordomo plasticomo
Brandon,
Bah.
With that kind of disdain for your audience, you're a true rocker already.
Rock on, dude. *devil sign*
Bah.
With that kind of disdain for your audience, you're a true rocker already.
Rock on, dude. *devil sign*
Eurythmic
majordomo plasticomo
Roel,
Brandon has obviously never picked up a band or orchestra instrument. If he had, he would know what you're talking about.
laj35,
Challenge. That's exactly what brought this topic up. I challenged Brandon to find value in popular music, and he couldn't do it.
Now I'll challenge you. Listen to N'Sync's song, "I Thought She Knew". Analyze the vocal arrangement. Write it out on a score, and let us know what you find. Oh, and by the way, N'Sync DOESN'T get credit solely for lyrics on their current album. But I bet nobody ever bothered to find that out.
Better still, write a song that's one half as catchy, impeccably arranged, and well-recorded as Mandy Moore's song, "In My Pocket". Let me know when you're done, because I'll be first in line to buy your album.
Brandon has obviously never picked up a band or orchestra instrument. If he had, he would know what you're talking about.
laj35,
Challenge. That's exactly what brought this topic up. I challenged Brandon to find value in popular music, and he couldn't do it.
Now I'll challenge you. Listen to N'Sync's song, "I Thought She Knew". Analyze the vocal arrangement. Write it out on a score, and let us know what you find. Oh, and by the way, N'Sync DOESN'T get credit solely for lyrics on their current album. But I bet nobody ever bothered to find that out.
Better still, write a song that's one half as catchy, impeccably arranged, and well-recorded as Mandy Moore's song, "In My Pocket". Let me know when you're done, because I'll be first in line to buy your album.
Last edited:
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EndlessCoda
New member
brandon.w said:
Ok, using your interpretation it is possible to be an accomplished musician, dancer, actor, etc. etc. without being an artist. I'm cool with that, as long as you realize that this isn't the same definition of "art" that is widely accepted and has been taught for centuries and centuries to artists, by artists. When I was a kid I had a different interpretation of the word "No" then my parents did...go figure.
<-peace->
C
chazba
terminally hip
The difference between art and entertainment is the difference between Whitney Houston and Brittney Spears
Eurythmic
majordomo plasticomo
And that is...?
laj35
New member
Woah,
Eurythmic dude you need to chill out. What's this quest to protect the integrity of these people all about? People are voicing their opinions here and you are coming back at every one with something new.
In response to your "challenge" to me, you're absolutely right that I can't write or arrange what in my opinion, not yours of course, is shit, but hey neither can any of those little morons either. I can't write anything so catchy probably because I'm more into trying to create music that will make people think and not distract their brain from doing so by clouding it with rhymie little cliches about what she knew or what's in my pocket, hum, deep thoughts indeed. And in terms of what I stated, I said NSYNC/Britney/Mandy Moore don't challenge anyone, and they don't. They distract people with bright lights, tight clothes and yup cathcy tunes.
I respect you for sticking to your ground, but man chill out, have a beer, something.
Also you should check out the picture of Britney that's posted with the thread: Hip Hop Producer in the newbies section and tell me if you think that's something that the world's 9 year olds should be seeing or maybe it's people like you and not little kids who are the true fans of Bubble Gum Culture. Oh and don't get me wrong I enjoyed that picture very much.
Laj
Eurythmic dude you need to chill out. What's this quest to protect the integrity of these people all about? People are voicing their opinions here and you are coming back at every one with something new.
In response to your "challenge" to me, you're absolutely right that I can't write or arrange what in my opinion, not yours of course, is shit, but hey neither can any of those little morons either. I can't write anything so catchy probably because I'm more into trying to create music that will make people think and not distract their brain from doing so by clouding it with rhymie little cliches about what she knew or what's in my pocket, hum, deep thoughts indeed. And in terms of what I stated, I said NSYNC/Britney/Mandy Moore don't challenge anyone, and they don't. They distract people with bright lights, tight clothes and yup cathcy tunes.
I respect you for sticking to your ground, but man chill out, have a beer, something.
Also you should check out the picture of Britney that's posted with the thread: Hip Hop Producer in the newbies section and tell me if you think that's something that the world's 9 year olds should be seeing or maybe it's people like you and not little kids who are the true fans of Bubble Gum Culture. Oh and don't get me wrong I enjoyed that picture very much.
Laj
Eurythmic
majordomo plasticomo
I love it!
This is so predictable!
laj35,
After which you proceed to defend yourself, of course, against an insult that never came.
Need I remind you that this entire thread was created to debunk something that _I_ said? Or weren't you paying attention to that? Sure, I could have ignored it. But why? It's fun to watch rockers squirm.
I should have guessed that you hadn't heard either of the songs that I mentioned. That's alright. I didn't figure you'd have an open enough mind to analyze music for music, rather than analyzing it for style.
"Chill out dude, have a beer. Oh, by the way. You suck."
Gotta love how you slip an insult in there after telling somebody not to be defensive. Do I really threaten you that much?
Underneath all this, not a single person got the point.
If you'll notice, I've been very careful not to mention what kind of music I make, or what percentage of my record collection is current pop.
I could have simply said that I thought Amnesiac was the best rock album of the year. Then I could have been "cool" in the eyes of all the "rockers", and it would have been over. But I didn't, and I have been thoroughly entertained by the response. I could have scripted it myself. Since that post, I've been indirectly insulted by the creation of an entire thread to make fun of two names that I dropped, I've been called a teenybopper, and I've even had my artistic integrity directly called into question.
Am I the only person who notices some severe logical flaws in the way you folks think?
Of course, you COULD have given the music an honest chance, as I suggested. You might have discovered that N'Sync's album Celebrity is an absolute library of tricks that any home recorder could use, or that Mandy Moore has quite possibly the best female voice in music today.
But that just wouldn't "rock", man. *devil sign*
Anyway, here's the point.
There is no good music.
There is no bad music.
There is only WHAT YOU LIKE.
"Some people wish above all to conform to the rules, I wish only to render what I can hear... There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law."
"Extreme complication is contrary to art.... Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."
--Claude Debussy
This is so predictable!
laj35,
After which you proceed to defend yourself, of course, against an insult that never came.
Need I remind you that this entire thread was created to debunk something that _I_ said? Or weren't you paying attention to that? Sure, I could have ignored it. But why? It's fun to watch rockers squirm.
I should have guessed that you hadn't heard either of the songs that I mentioned. That's alright. I didn't figure you'd have an open enough mind to analyze music for music, rather than analyzing it for style.
"Chill out dude, have a beer. Oh, by the way. You suck."
Gotta love how you slip an insult in there after telling somebody not to be defensive. Do I really threaten you that much?
Underneath all this, not a single person got the point.
If you'll notice, I've been very careful not to mention what kind of music I make, or what percentage of my record collection is current pop.
I could have simply said that I thought Amnesiac was the best rock album of the year. Then I could have been "cool" in the eyes of all the "rockers", and it would have been over. But I didn't, and I have been thoroughly entertained by the response. I could have scripted it myself. Since that post, I've been indirectly insulted by the creation of an entire thread to make fun of two names that I dropped, I've been called a teenybopper, and I've even had my artistic integrity directly called into question.
Am I the only person who notices some severe logical flaws in the way you folks think?
Of course, you COULD have given the music an honest chance, as I suggested. You might have discovered that N'Sync's album Celebrity is an absolute library of tricks that any home recorder could use, or that Mandy Moore has quite possibly the best female voice in music today.
But that just wouldn't "rock", man. *devil sign*
Anyway, here's the point.
There is no good music.
There is no bad music.
There is only WHAT YOU LIKE.
"Some people wish above all to conform to the rules, I wish only to render what I can hear... There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law."
"Extreme complication is contrary to art.... Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."
--Claude Debussy
laj35
New member
Man this is out of hand!
I never for a second intended to insult anyone, you said you like NSYNC and Mandy Moore, are they not bubble gum culture? I'm not here to argue, my original post was by no means directed at you. I completely 100% agree with you that most including myself (something I'm working on) write off this type of music as useless without giving it a listen. What can I say, perhaps it's just a matter of being forced fed the stuff. The fact that I'm now posting to defend myself is crazy, I guess I was a tad bitter in my descriptions of the teeny boppers but none of that harshness was intended for you. You right that it's all dependant on what makes you feel good, happy, anything. My main hang up is that, to me, what does this music prompt a person to feel/do, not much, again this is totally biased upon my own set of standards. It is nice music, but I'm so obsessed with what the tunes imply, maybe this is my "rocker" phase as you so eloquently put it (by the way I must definitively state that rock is not on top of my list, Radiohead is but that's it in terms of stuff that's out there right now, I love Floyd, the Beatles, Dylan but I hate the rock that's coming out now perhaps even more than the stuff in question), maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic that feels that music should nudge people in a progressive fashion, make them work, better themselves and not just give them as REM put it "A simple prop to occupy [their] time," which is what I feel these groups/artists (yes, artists) do. Again Eurythmic, I want to make it clear to you that I have or never had any beef with you, I agree with alot of what you say. It is just fuckin music, listen to what does it for you, that's the best part of it all, I was simply trying to convey my thoughts on the degredation of society as a whole and how that is reciprocated in Pop music, all unfounded, completely biased opinions. Please don't ever call me a rocker, and please don't assume that everyone is lowlier than thou, still in puberty, or some other menial phase.
Laj
I never for a second intended to insult anyone, you said you like NSYNC and Mandy Moore, are they not bubble gum culture? I'm not here to argue, my original post was by no means directed at you. I completely 100% agree with you that most including myself (something I'm working on) write off this type of music as useless without giving it a listen. What can I say, perhaps it's just a matter of being forced fed the stuff. The fact that I'm now posting to defend myself is crazy, I guess I was a tad bitter in my descriptions of the teeny boppers but none of that harshness was intended for you. You right that it's all dependant on what makes you feel good, happy, anything. My main hang up is that, to me, what does this music prompt a person to feel/do, not much, again this is totally biased upon my own set of standards. It is nice music, but I'm so obsessed with what the tunes imply, maybe this is my "rocker" phase as you so eloquently put it (by the way I must definitively state that rock is not on top of my list, Radiohead is but that's it in terms of stuff that's out there right now, I love Floyd, the Beatles, Dylan but I hate the rock that's coming out now perhaps even more than the stuff in question), maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic that feels that music should nudge people in a progressive fashion, make them work, better themselves and not just give them as REM put it "A simple prop to occupy [their] time," which is what I feel these groups/artists (yes, artists) do. Again Eurythmic, I want to make it clear to you that I have or never had any beef with you, I agree with alot of what you say. It is just fuckin music, listen to what does it for you, that's the best part of it all, I was simply trying to convey my thoughts on the degredation of society as a whole and how that is reciprocated in Pop music, all unfounded, completely biased opinions. Please don't ever call me a rocker, and please don't assume that everyone is lowlier than thou, still in puberty, or some other menial phase.
Laj
LI Slim
New member
Okay. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, 2d ed., the first two definitions of "art" are as follows:
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty.
"Entertainment": Something that entertains.
Okay, "entertain": 1. To hold the attention of, amuse.
These are actually pretty good ways to look at it. Some art is entertainment, some entertainment is art. Many things are both.
I agree with, and the dictionary definition supports, the notion that if the purported artist says it's art, then it is art. All music is art. All musicians, whether writing or performing, are artists. What's left is the question of what's good and what sucks. Experienced and/or knowledgable people make certain agreements/judgments about whether something is good, and that's entitled to some respect. When the entertainment-consuming general public makes art popular, it could be taken as evidence that the art is good, because it affects many people, or that it's bad, because it's really just reaching the lowest common demoninator.
We should try to support art that doesn't care about reaching the most people as much as it cares about affecting people in a profound or original way. (Or perhaps you disagree.) Art like that enriches us and our culture by expanding our ability to see nature and ourselves.
QED
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty.
"Entertainment": Something that entertains.
Okay, "entertain": 1. To hold the attention of, amuse.
These are actually pretty good ways to look at it. Some art is entertainment, some entertainment is art. Many things are both.
I agree with, and the dictionary definition supports, the notion that if the purported artist says it's art, then it is art. All music is art. All musicians, whether writing or performing, are artists. What's left is the question of what's good and what sucks. Experienced and/or knowledgable people make certain agreements/judgments about whether something is good, and that's entitled to some respect. When the entertainment-consuming general public makes art popular, it could be taken as evidence that the art is good, because it affects many people, or that it's bad, because it's really just reaching the lowest common demoninator.
We should try to support art that doesn't care about reaching the most people as much as it cares about affecting people in a profound or original way. (Or perhaps you disagree.) Art like that enriches us and our culture by expanding our ability to see nature and ourselves.
QED
LI Slim
New member
dr.colossus said:
Ah, but cheap whores are expert at the art of sucking!
Khompewtur
*Retired*
Entertainment is what we buy today
Art is what we buy 15 years from now
Art is what we buy 15 years from now
Roel
That SMART guy.
Re: I love it!
Not entirelly in the same context, but close... And kindof the contrairy...
"Once we are cured from the delusion that the artist's aim is to create beauty, and once we have recognized that only the necessity to produce compels him to bring forth what will perhaps afterwards be designated as beauty, then we will also understand that comprehensibility and clarity are not conditions that the artist is obliged to impose on his work, but conditions the observer wishes to find fulfilled."
Arnold Schoenberg, Theory Of Harmony, p30
hmmmmm...
Gotta love the man...
Your turn, Eurythmic.
Eurythmic said:
Not entirelly in the same context, but close... And kindof the contrairy...
"Once we are cured from the delusion that the artist's aim is to create beauty, and once we have recognized that only the necessity to produce compels him to bring forth what will perhaps afterwards be designated as beauty, then we will also understand that comprehensibility and clarity are not conditions that the artist is obliged to impose on his work, but conditions the observer wishes to find fulfilled."
Arnold Schoenberg, Theory Of Harmony, p30
hmmmmm...
Gotta love the man...
Your turn, Eurythmic.