Are the Mackie HR824's now made in China?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I wholeheartedly agree with that.
But what will happen to us then?
WE will be the ones starving

Once again, history holds the answer. And that answer is, that's just a rehash of old prejudiced paranoia a few times over...

"Americans" complained about the same thing with "loss" of the manufacture of the transistor radio in the late 60s/early 70s.

Then it was the "loss" of television manufacture in the late 70s/early 80s.

Then it was the - if not the loss, the loss of the monopoly - of the automobile industry in the mid 80s.

Then came a similar trend with computer manufacture in the 90s.

Now it is the lost of the customer service industry.

There is a common denominator though all of this. It's all the natural evolution of technology and manufacture. Each of these technologies were - if not necessarily invented - matured and a mass market developed here. Once the market is mature and the technology becomes a commodity, the manufacturing moves to less-R&D-inovative countries and eventually to second-and third-world countries where manufacturing costs can be minimized because of the lack of R&D costs. In the meantime we move on to The Next Big Thing. There's nothing abnormal about that, it's the natural economic cycle of the global economy.

And there is, in fact, a certain amount of built-in self-security (though only to a point) in such global sharing of the wealth. It's the poor, the down-trodden and disrespected in other countries that cause the greatest long-term threat to global economic security. If we kept everything to ourselves and treated everybody else as Oliver Twist, we'd be stabbing ourselves in the economic back. As the globe goes, so do we.

The biggest danger is when we bcome lazy and lose our innovative edge. Japan gave us an economic and creative run for our money in the 80s, but our ability to innovate and adapt combined with our deep economic pockets gave us the personal computer, the Internet industry and vastly improved automobile quality, while giving Japan a deep recession in return. But there are a couple of disturbing trends now, and the disturbing trends are coming from within, not without.

First is that we have an increasing value system in this country that de-emphasizes the perceived value of both hard work and education. We have become too lazy or hoity toity to mow our own lawns or make our own food; we refuse to work at blue-collar or minimum wage jobs because we think we deserve better than that. And then we complain when foreigners come here and do the work for us or when our jobs wind up being exported overseas because we price ourselves right out of the market.

At the same time we are losing the education resources of our own colleges to those with student visas from other countries because we find it easier to play the pro ball player lottery at the age of 18 than we do to get a Bachelor's or Master's at the age of 20 or 21. We have - by any measure - the best colleges in the world, but we're exporting all our best education to students from other countries. The old cycle of "innovate more technology here, then export the matured industry there" is threatened to be usurped by all the Masters and PhD degrees going back overseas and all the money those countries are pouring into bleeding-edge R&D now.

But that's all not *their* fault. How can blame them? If we lose it'll be our fault for getting greedy and lazy. I can guarantee you that your average 20-year-old home recc'r in Korea or Japan is not looking for an Easy Button to do their mastering, or even looking for "mastering software". They learn the art and the science of audio engineering inside-out and then apply it creatively to the problem. They know there is no such thing as an "Easy Button", and frankly they are just fine with that, and laugh at us when we think different.

Xstatic is right. Country of origin is no guarantee of quality of worker. I couldn't get a neighbor kid to shovel my snow in the winter to make a few bucks if my life depended upon it. And the ones who do do their own driveways more often than not do a sloppy-assed job of it. And they want me to hire them as an AE or intern for my work here? Not a chance. I don't hire slack-asses. Give me a kid who offers to do my driveway for free in exchange for an opportunity to help me out in the studio, and I'll give you the next Warren Buffet or Bill Gates.

I mentioned in my first post that my Chevy Impala was assembled in Mexico. The plant that most (all?) Impalas are currently assembled is the same one in Mexico that the Buick LaCrosses are manufactured at. This assembly plant (as we've all in the States have seen in the TV commercials for the LaCrosse) has been rated by J.D. Powers as the highest-quality automobile assembly plant in North America. Of course the commercials don't bother to mention that the plant is in Mexico; they couldn't sell many cars that way any more than I could sell that Sony TV by saying the same thing. But the fact remains that the plant highest-rated in quality for assembling "American" cars is not even located in the United States. Some quality labor and QA force we have here, eh?

I'm not anti-American, not by a long shot. I'm just saying that if we "lose" to China, India, Korea or anyone else, it's our own laziness and complacence that'll be at fault, not theirs. We need to get off our asses, stop bitching and start working and studying and applying ourselves, not pretend life is a video game and think there is a free crack or an easy button for everything.

[end of rant, start of aplolgy ]

G.

 

[booyah14]

We have - by any measure - the best colleges in the world, but we're exporting all our best education to students from other countries.

This is completely untrue. Almost all schools overseas are so hard to get into, that the ones that don't make the cut have to "settle" for Ivy league schools in the States.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

This is completely untrue. Almost all schools overseas are so hard to get into, that the ones that don't make the cut have to "settle" for Ivy league schools in the States.

Oh, please.

Name the top colleges in the world; ones such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Northwestern, Whatsamatta U. US instutions, every one of them. Three of those are Ivy League, sure. I have never read an article or study or anything like that that said anything other than the idea that the best collection of universities in the world are in the States.

And nobody "settles" for getting into those schools. Only the richest and the brightest from overseas are the ones going to those schools, and picking those as their first choice.

And, this is interesting. Let's pretend for just a moment that what you say is true; that your average Venusian or Saturnian student has to "settle" for some shit institution like Harvard. That fact alone would prove the point beyond all doubt that we have a problem with education in this country if other countries consider Harvard a "fall-back position".

G.

 

[TheDewd]

Oh, please.
Name the top colleges in the world; ones such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Northwestern, Whatsamatta U. US instutions, every one of them. Three of those are Ivy League, sure. I have never read an article or study or anything like that that said anything other than the idea that the best collection of universities in the world are in the States.
G.

I'm with you 100% Glen.
Being admitted to the MIT would mean more to me than winning a couple of millon dollars at the lottery.
The problem is that....I could only afford MIT if I won the lottery
Here in Quebec, education is DIRT cheap compared to the USA.

 

[giraffe]

Now it's China. They started 5 or 10 years ago exactly where Japan started 40 years ago and Korea did 20 years ago. In another 5 or 10 years, the days of "Made in China" automatically meaning cheap, badly built crap will be as antequated as the idea of "Made in Japan" meaning the same thing.

G.

but i think it will take quite a bit longer in china, the available labor pool is so huge that the market forces that make it (labor) more expensive will take some time to kick in.

 

[Halion]

I say, China, good for you. So yeah, they have wages that are way lower than ours, and sub-standard quality(control). That's their own choice. The chinese working class might not have much to say about that, but in the end, they will wise up and figure out they are now the major producers of lots and lots of products, so that gives them the power to ask for a decent wage. It takes time though.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

those of us who were actually born before punk rock will remember that it wasn't that long ago that a "Made in Japan" stamp invaribly and automaticllay meant "cheap piece of junk"

i'm only 23, and i still remember that. when i was a kid, no japanese electronics were worth looking at unless they said SONY on them.

and you're totally right about the whole we-only-have-ourselves-to-blame thing...people in this country have become so spoiled, and have such a sense of entitlement, that nobody will work for shit anymore. my "real" job requires me supervising kids in high school or just out of school a lot of the time, and i gotta say, they're fucking laaaaaaaaaaaazy. now don't get me wrong - i realize fully that HS kids aren't exactly the model of workplace consistency, but these fuckers are often unwilling to do anything that would be halfway considered hard work because they've grown up their entire lives having mom and dad do everything for them...or pay a mexican to do it. it's a sad, sad, time in our country, and too few many people seem to care, or even realize it.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

The chinese working class might not have much to say about that, but in the end, they will wise up and figure out they are now the major producers of lots and lots of products, so that gives them the power to ask for a decent wage.

totally. as much as the chinese gov't hates to admit it, their economic growth in the last decade is directly related to their loosening of the communist reigns, and loosening things up more is the only thing that will ensure their continued growth. i wonder when the teamsters will start distributing flyers in china, haha.

 

[SBax]

I've been to new circuit board factories in China, twice. The workers are teenage farm kids living in cinder block dorms spending their money at the company store. The other part of the money goes back home and into computers or Honda and Yamaha scooters. I spent about 5 weeks total there. ALL the technology in these factories are US/Western Europe. One thing they make are Dell server backplanes (not low tech). I go there to show them what they are doing wrong. I am helping them take my job away. Since 1999, more than 60% of the USA production of circuit boards has shifted to Asia, mainly China. The only way they would know a defective part from a good part is.....well they don't know. All the movies, software and music is pirated, all of it. Same thing in Malaysia, Thailand, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc.

 

[TheDewd]

The only way they would know a defective part from a good part is.....well they don't know.

This is why I'd encourage the quality check to be made in North America.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

This is why I'd encourage the quality check to be made in North America.

Of course you do realize that the people that hold the exact same positions in this country are not exactly PhDs ore even highly-paid skilled laborers either, right? And that QA ("Quality Assurance", in these days of silly job discription euphamisms) is an entirely different department from assembly? And - here's the punch line, wait for it... - that most QA staff typically have on average no more technical engineering training or education than the assembly line workers do?

G.

 

[TheDewd]

Of course you do realize that the people that hold the exact same positions in this country are not exactly PhDs ore even highly-paid skilled laborers either, right? And that QA ("Quality Assurance", in these days of silly job discription euphamisms) is an entirely different department from assembly? And - here's the punch line, wait for it... - that most QA staff typically have on average no more technical engineering training or education than the assembly line workers do?
G.

Quit those bad news guys...
The more you say those kind of things, the more I think I'm gonna move on to hand-made small company boutique stuff as often as I can and let go the big guys.
You guys are basically destroying my American dream

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The more you say those kind of things, the more I think I'm gonna move on to hand-made small company boutique stuff as often as I can and let go the big guys. You guys are basically destroying my American dream

I wouldn't worry about it quite so much, Dewd. That's how the manufacturing process works, and it has for a long. long time. Assembly line work not only does not require skilled labor, it would be a waste of resources to put a college grad there. It's work that requires very little training and practically zero theoretical knowledge.

As far as hardware QA testers, they are typically not folks who are hired to find out what's good or bad about a circuit design or to troubleshoot any problems or anything like that. More often than not they are someone who has been trained to "Stick this probe here, and that probe there; if the number on the screen is 3.5, stick it in the 'good' box, if it is anything else, stick it in the 'bad' box." I worked for a company whose typical QA tester's previous schooling was somewhere between a GED and one year of college and who's average work experience was as sales clerk at Best Buy. (The company put out a high-tech, high-quality product, BTW.)

The thing to understand is that's not a bad thing. That's how it works. Try filling such positions with experienced EEs and one of two things will happen: either the EE is going to leave the job within 60 days for another company willing to give them a job their training is worthy of, or, the EE stays on and you have to pay them engineer's wages to be a non-thinking machine, raising your costs to the point where you can't compete in the market.

And unfortunately not everybody can be a "botique" brand. If everybody were, there'd no longer be *any* botique brands, because what was previously called botuique would now be called "average". And before you think that's a good thing, an economy where the "average" product is out of the price range of the average consumer is a recipe for either extreme poverty or runaway inflation.

And finally, all that blah blah blah aside, Dude, look at the reality of the situation. Everything in your studio is manufactured, assembled and tested that way. Probably 80% of the components comprising the products in your studio were fabricated somewhere in the Far East or Indonesia, and an increasing number of them are going to be either fully-assembled or (eventually) fully-fabricated there as well. The stuff works quite well far, far more often than it doesn't. What's the problem?

You don't want to send your money overseas? You have two ways of countering that. The first is to figure out how to get Americans to work for wages that'll compete with those in the emerging countries. Good luck.

Or the second, far more feasable way is to actually invest in those foreign companies. Every share of stock you own in a successful Chinese company is that much more of their profits that are coming back into your pocket and therefore back into this country.

G.

 

[bigtoe]

"Only the richest and the brightest from overseas are the ones going to those schools, and picking those as their first choice."

just a note - my family members are and have been educators at these institutions. (oberlin, yale, eastman) you'd be surpised how broke ass a lot of the non-us students are, particularly the chinese. bright, yes...rich and well connected? no. kind of a misconception, though a deserved one seeing as most americans going to these universities are trust funders.

back to your regularly-scheduled chinese debate.

Mike

 

[SBax]

I've been working with chemists and chemical engineers from Asia since 1988 in the circuit board industry. The PhD's in Asia can barely hold a candle to a BS here. And I don't mean where they got the degree. There's no difference if they got the degree here or in Asia, none. It's a cultural thing. At any skill or education level they cannot improvise or use common sense. They only do what they are told to do and if "something new" comes up, they are confused. There is no intuition or a "can do" attitude. Anyone with a degree over there feels they are too important to do anything other than sit in front of a computer. They won't go near an assembly line if they have a degree. Even if they did go near the line they can't catch anything either. Of course, a final QA inspection cannot catch everything. So "almost" defective parts and defective "out-of-spec" processes which result in latent failures on the final product slip through all the time. A lot of these quickly fail in the field. I saw this with Dell (last year) and Motorola (this year) boards. The Dell boards were in the servers and in use. They ran these Dell panels on a re-furbished process line that was all screwed up and hadn't been approved for production yet.

Now, there are lots of crappy circuit boards mfg in the US that are pretty scary too. But there are lots that are very good with excellent engineers, some of them don't even have degrees but are impressive people. I have only met two Asian engineers that were good or could be compared to Americans. I am only speaking about my respective field.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

They won't go near an assembly line if they have a degree.

Whereas your average American EE grad will be happy soldering boards for $8.50/hr, right?

G.

 

[boingoman]

The PhD's in Asia can barely hold a candle to a BS here. And I don't mean where they got the degree. There's no difference if they got the degree here or in Asia, none. It's a cultural thing.

Independent thought hasn't been very popular in Asia for the last forty years or so, that's for sure. Gotta love those intellectual purges.

 

[SBax]

Whereas your average American EE grad will be happy soldering boards for $8.50/hr, right?

No, no. I'm talking about Process Engineers. Their responsibility and job function is the process (assembly) line. They play on the computer with SPC and Six Sigma as the process line is falling apart. Then they wonder what happened and blame the equipment or chemistry manufacturer for the problem. (sigh)

Independent thought hasn't been very popular in Asia for the last forty years or so, that's for sure. Gotta love those intellectual purges.

The Asian parents brainwash the kids into thinking school as the only priority. I'm guessing that kids that are a little wild, or off-beat, or independant, or anything other than the perfect hands-folded student sitting passively and absorbing are pushed aside and rejected as bad students. The ideal perfect students that make it through are just that and nothing else. Guess what? The real world is not academia. School is just a tool to get you going. The rest is up to you. They cannot understand that concept and it's the parents/culture fault. Not the kids.

 

[bigtoe]

I've been working with chemists and chemical engineers from Asia since 1988 in the circuit board industry. The PhD's in Asia can barely hold a candle to a BS here. And I don't mean where they got the degree. There's no difference if they got the degree here or in Asia, none. It's a cultural thing. At any skill or education level they cannot improvise or use common sense. They only do what they are told to do and if "something new" comes up, they are confused. There is no intuition or a "can do" attitude. Anyone with a degree over there feels they are too important to do anything other than sit in front of a computer. They won't go near an assembly line if they have a degree. Even if they did go near the line they can't catch anything either. Of course, a final QA inspection cannot catch everything. So "almost" defective parts and defective "out-of-spec" processes which result in latent failures on the final product slip through all the time. A lot of these quickly fail in the field. I saw this with Dell (last year) and Motorola (this year) boards. The Dell boards were in the servers and in use. They ran these Dell panels on a re-furbished process line that was all screwed up and hadn't been approved for production yet.

Now, there are lots of crappy circuit boards mfg in the US that are pretty scary too. But there are lots that are very good with excellent engineers, some of them don't even have degrees but are impressive people. I have only met two Asian engineers that were good or could be compared to Americans. I am only speaking about my respective field.

wow. it is truely sad to read something like this in 2006.

the only upside to this is next 60's should be coming a long in a few years - good for the music.

Mike

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

the only upside to this is next 60's should be coming a long in a few years - good for the music.

Now you're talkin'!!!

G.