Are Subs a total necessity?

Tim Walker

Tim Walker

New member
I had a sales guy at the local store tell me you absolutely have to have a sub in your monitoring system. I think he was full of crap.

Anyway what are some decent monitors for rock music? Budget is about $400 - $500


Thanks in advance

tim
 
I think that *IF* your room is properly tuned, with plenty of control over the low end, a sub is a wonderful and beneficial thing - If you feel like it.

In a room that's NOT properly controlled, a sub normally does more harm than good.
 
I agree with everything that Master John said. I'd also humbly add another possible caveat:

If you're mixing for playback systems that will have subs - mainly either 5.1 or better surround sound or rolling hip hop boom boxes on wheels (otherwise called cars with sound systems that weigh more than the transmission), then a sub monitor in a good room might make more sense.

If you're mixing more for demo CDs, MP3 distribution, etc., then a sub monitor probably isn't of much utility.

G.
 
Tim Walker said:
I had a sales guy at the local store tell me you absolutely have to have a sub in your monitoring system. I think he was full of crap.

Anyway what are some decent monitors for rock music? Budget is about $400 - $500


Thanks in advance

tim
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I've got Event PS6 monitors and really like them. You might want to look at their TR6.
 
Yes. Full of crap. Myself and other pro mixers pals of mine that are mixing records, almost none of us use subs.

If you can find a pair of used Event 20/20bas monitors you will be very happy. An insanely good bargain in the mixing world.
 
You can get away without having subs. You can use a good set of Pro head phones to monitor your low end. Something that is usually more beneficial in a room without any low end treatments.

Most people will probably listen on a medium range system, which usually won't register the extreme low end anyway.
 
Hello All:

Warning I am somewhat biased, but...

There are many benefits to using a subwoofer as part of a monitoring system. However, the key is to use proper bass-management electronics (correct summation and crossover networks), that allow you to properly sum your monitors to that SUB. When done correctly a SUB/SAT system should perform as a seamless monitoring system that will offer considerable advantages over conventional "quasi" full-range speakers.

The main advantages of a a SUB/SAT based system over a pair of conventional "quasi full-range monitors" are going to be; smaller main speakers that are easier to place (better imaging), better LF response, reduced inter-modulation distortion and more repeatable LF response from room to room (small or large).

The point about "more repeatable LF response from room to room" is one that people often don`t fully understand or overlook. However, how low frequencies sum, from two or more different sources (left and right speakers for example), will depend greatly on room acoustics, the relative distances between the speakers, the relation between the speakers and the boundaries in the room, which speakers are playing, the phase relationship between these signals, and where the listener is in relation to the speakers in the room. These factors are highly complex and will be different from room to room and will vary greatly between Mix A and Mix B.

Electrical summation of the LF signals (as is done with bass-management / sub/SAT system), is a very predictable and repeatable way to get consistent LF response. LF phase issues between channels are resolved in the most absolute and accurate way - electrically. Using one or more subwoofers in a room, which are placed for the best bass response in that given room, will 99% of time provide the best overall system performance.

Additional information of the advantages of sub/SAT systems are explained here on our website. http://www.abluesky.com/fullrange

Let me just finish by adding a couple more points -

1) The goal of a monitoring system is to accurately convey what is being recorded. People strive for the highest resolution, most extended response (LF to HF) in audio acquisition systems (microphones, pre amps, A to D, DAW), we shouldn't settle for less from our monitoring systems.

2) The monitoring "system", includes the room and it is important for all users to address the acoustics of the room, when looking at upgrading their monitoring system.

For general acoustic info, we just added this section to our website...
www.abluesky.com/acoustics

I hope that helps...

Cheers!
 
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It depends. If you are just looking for general coastal defense, no. But if you want to be an all out superpower with a global navy, then yes, subs are an absolute necessity :D :D
 
Anyone who says something is NECESSARY is some one you can learn a lot from.

You just learned to ignore everything else they tell you:D

A sub is not necessarym, but depending on your demands, logistics and budget, it may be desirable:)
 
BLueSky>
If using a 2.1 system will you still get an acurate playback of the low end on a normal stereo system? Doesnt the sub sum all the frequencies below the cross over to mono?
If you are mixing a traditional classical piece with the bass and cellos panned mostly to to the right... i guess the fundamental freq would be sumed mono on the sub but you would still be able to judge placement from the higher harmonics...
 
dcwave said:
BLueSky>
If using a 2.1 system will you still get an acurate playback of the low end on a normal stereo system? Doesnt the sub sum all the frequencies below the cross over to mono?
If you are mixing a traditional classical piece with the bass and cellos panned mostly to to the right... i guess the fundamental freq would be sumed mono on the sub but you would still be able to judge placement from the higher harmonics...
Click to expand...

You are correct...

Low frequencies, lets say below 150Hz (or so), become omnidirectional and your ears directional acuity goes away. This because the wavelengths become too large relative the distance between your ears (for example 80Hz is about 14 feet) and also because of how the LF frequencies propagate in a room. However the directional cues of the instrument, which are at higher harmonic frequencies than the fundamental - where our ears have very high directional acuity, will be reproduced by the left or right speakers. Therefore your brain perceives that signal as coming from the left or right speakers (or some combination of both) and not from two separate source (SUB and SAT).

The key to making this work, is making sure that the sub doesn't generate high HF harmonic distortion (such as driver distortion or port noise etc) and that you control sympathetic vibrations (rattling and buzzing "stuff").

Hope that helps explain it a little better...

Cheers!
 
BlueSky said:
Low frequencies, lets say below 150Hz (or so), become omnidirectional and your ears directional acuity goes away. This because the wavelengths become too large relative the distance between your ears (for example 80Hz is about 14 feet) and also because of how the LF frequencies propagate in a room.
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Am I to assume you've actually listened only to a sub playing 80Hz and could not locate it's location?

I can't hear directionality below about 35-40 Hz, but above that it's fairly obvious.

To claim that 150 Hz or so it non-directional flies in the face of my experiences...
 
bblackwood said:
Am I to assume you've actually listened only to a sub playing 80Hz and could not locate it's location?

I can't hear directionality below about 35-40 Hz, but above that it's fairly obvious.

To claim that 150 Hz or so it non-directional flies in the face of my experiences...
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Hello Brad -

First it is important for all to understand how our brains processes location cues from our ears. Above about 700Hz (depends on the size of your head), your brain uses Interaural Level Difference (ILD) as the primary factor in determining the directional location of a sound. ILD is the difference in level between your two ears.

Below 700Hz, your brain begins to rely on the Interaural Time Difference (ITD) between your ears (or phase shift) to determine the directional location of a sound. This works very well until the wavelengths get very long, the source becomes omni-directional (spherically - not "non" directional) and you are in an enclosed space. In an enclosed space (such as a studio), with a source that is radiating spherically, the ITD will be close to zero and you will have very little directional acuity at these low frequencies. However, as I mentioned, you will have very high directional acuity at higher frequencies and because your directional cues are coming from the SATs (which typically are playing the harmonics of the LF fundamentals), that is where your brain believes the sound is coming from.

This has been shown in many experiments, including some I took part in when I worked at THX.

With regard to playing an 80Hz tone; I would say that under most conditions directional acuity will be close to zero, because the ITD in a enclosed space will be close to zero. However, if the 80Hz signal has harmonics in it, due to distortion etc, then you may be able to locate the subwoofer. This is often the case at very low frequencies, when sending a tone to a subwoofer at a high level. Having said that, how often do you listen or record pure tones?

One last thing - I really enjoy having discussions with people about this type of stuff, but often it comes across as having an argument. This is just the nature of a forum, but not my intent.

Cheers!
 
BlueSky said:
With regard to playing an 80Hz tone; I would say that under most conditions directional acuity will be close to zero, because the ITD in a enclosed space will be close to zero. However, if the 80Hz signal has harmonics in it, due to distortion etc, then you may be able to locate the subwoofer. This is often the case at very low frequencies, when sending a tone to a subwoofer at a high level. Having said that, how often do you listen or record pure tones?
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Oh, we don't of course, but that's the easiest way to test it out, ime. The subs I use can output rather prodigious amounts of LF info without generating distortion greater than 1%, so I feel it safe to assume I'm actually hearing locality, somehow...

One last thing - I really enjoy having discussions with people about this type of stuff, but often it comes across as having an argument. This is just the nature of a forum, but not my intent.
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Of course, same here. I can come across rather abrupt sometimes, if I doso, you have my apologies...
 
I went to a dealer seminar years ago. The rep was showing how to set up PA gear and how to make it sound good. He put a CD in the player and A/B'd them through different speaker setups. After about 5 minutes he pointed at me and called me up on the stage. He took me around behind the speakers and asked me if I noticed anything strange. After looking things over I noticed that the bass cabs were not plugged in. He pointed to the back of the room, about 100 feet away. There was something against the wall with a blanket over it. He asked me to go pull that blanket off. It was ONE bass cab. Not a single person in the room could tell that the lows were NOT coming from the stage.
 
Easy answer: NO. They are, in fact, a total pain in the ass. They mess up your transient response, and if you have decent speakers, the low end is fine from your speakers.


Unless of course you are doing 5.1 or 7.1.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Subs can give a misleading representation of the amount of bass in a mix. Consequently you can end up with mixes that are too lean on bass because your reference bass is exaggerated.

-Tim
 
Light said:
Easy answer: NO. They are, in fact, a total pain in the ass. They mess up your transient response, and if you have decent speakers, the low end is fine from your speakers.


Unless of course you are doing 5.1 or 7.1.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

Good or bad transient response is related to the design of a given speaker (not just subs) and / or poor room acoustics (room modes etc). For example a sealed box subwoofer or monitor will exhibit better transient response than a ported box or one that has a passive radiator. www.abluesky.com/ports

Subwoofers are a useful tool, especially if you want a truly full-range monitoring system, and many users (stereo and beyond) use them successfully.

Cheers!
 
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