Are some drums just not tunable?

[Greg_L]

the problem is though, the new heads (g2 coated) sound dead without a reso head, has anyone else found this? The stock heads (Remo UX both batter & reso ) are very ringy when both reso & batter are on, but they seem to cope better with just a batter on (but don't sound great). This is starting to get complicated. Ideally I would have liked a tom range from (low) C# to A to Higher C# but it's well out of the range of the lower tom. Which size of tom would I need for that ballpark pitch?

A G2 Coated is a pretty dry, dead-ish head. They really need the help of a reso head or they will sound flat and lifeless, especially on your tiny sized kit. I can't imagine a 12" tom being your low floor-tom.

Anyway, think of the dead drum sounds of the 70's. Those are heavy coated batter heads with no resos. For tuning to a specific pitch, I think you'd do better with some cleaner, more open sounding clear type heads. Like clear G1's on both sides, or clear G2's on top and G1's on bottom.

 

[Farview]

Now, I may be wrong, but I was under the impression this advice is obsolete with modern kits because the hoops and shells are made so precise you don't need to even the tension out across the drum?

You don't need to do it because of the heads and/or hoops anymore. I just gave him that advice because it is easier to keep the tension even across the head when you do it in the star pattern.

When you are good at tuning, you don't need the star pattern anymore.

 

[_brian_]

I'm going to try & post a sample of what my toms are sounding like at the moment. Bear with me I haven't done this before & I'll have to upload at my local library. So it may take a little while

 

[_brian_]

toms.wma - 0.10MB

Ok, the high tom is 8" and has just the batter head on (original head) I need this tuned to C#, the floor tom is 12" and I really need it tuned an octave below the high tom but this is completely out with the floor tom's range so have had to tune it to the only other available pitch that doesn't sound awful in the song (F#). The floor tom has the new evans G2 coated batter head on & also the stock resonant head. Although it was a rush job recording the clip I think it gives you an idea of what I'm up against . I think both heads are in tune so why can I get a clean sound with the new evans head? Apparently these particular heads allow you to tune lower than usual but I was able to get a clean tone from the same pitch but with the stock head. i feel I've just wasted my money . Do I need a larger floor tom? If I do what size would you recommend for that lower C# pitch? Remember I am looking for a quiet drum that's able to be tuned low. (the reason I was pointed toward the mapex voyager series)

 

[Greg_L]

I don't think there's any way you're gonna get that floor tom down to a C#. It sounds pretty good as-is. If the F# works, why not stay there? The high tom sounds kinda weak. Put a reso head on it. You did a good job tuning to a pitch though. I played along with my guitar and you nailed it.

 

[mikeh]

I would strongly suggest you focus first on getting each drum to sound as good as it can with a reasonable blend of tone and attack - then if needed tweak the drums to work with each other - and not get too hung up on tuning to specific pitch. Any drum has a limited range of ideal tuning and the smaller the drum, the smaller that range. Don't compromise tone and resonance simply to achieve a pitch.

Also - don't try to tune top and bottom heads to the same pitch. It is normally better to keep the top head tuned a little lower for attack and then tune the bottom head a little higher for tone and resonance.

As a general rule, I much prefer tuning small drums down vs. big drums up - and I beleive it is possible to get a relatively big sound out of the Voyager kits........but you do have to be somewhat realistic that 10" and 12" toms can only give you so much low end.

Certainly having the resonant head on can help with a deeper tone (vs. single head). While I'm not a big fan of trying to fix sounds with EQ - I do think you would be better off getting the best tone for each drum (even if it is not as low as you would like) and then try to EQ to give the impression of more low end.

 

[_brian_]

"Another thing....pay little mind to the actual tightness of the lugs. It's the tone of the head at each lug that's important. You may have one lug that feels tighter than the one next to it, but if the pitch is the same, it's good to go."

That was some great advice!! That's one of the reasons I was cranking some lugs I think. I just forgot about lug tension & concentrated on the pitch & it worked!!

"I would strongly suggest you focus first on getting each drum to sound as good as it can with a reasonable blend of tone and attack - then if needed
tweak the drums to work with each other - and not get too hung up on tuning to specific pitch"

Totally agree, normally I wouldn't but the problem I have just now is that the songs I'm writing are heavilly tom based, it's not just the occasional fill, they are the basis of the drum patterns & if I don't tune them to these pitches it just sounds very wrong. The other problem I'm having is a lack of microphones & stands , my recording at the moment is just getting ideas down. Even if the drums did sound great I wouldn't be able to capture it as I only have an Sm57 & Sm57 Beta.

Once I get sorted out buying studio essentials I'll look into getting a new shell pack I think as the kit sadly doesn't have the range I was hoping it would. It was a great starter kit though!!

I'm going to look into getting some G1 clear batter heads, i like the feel of the clear heads aswell for some reason. I've replaced the old stock batter heads just for this song, the old stock reso heads I had to cut them up!! The problem was that when the reso heads were off the lugs were rattling. I've cut out the internals of the old reso's & left just enough for the bottom hoop to grip on to it so that I can tension the lower lugs. It worked!!

 

[Farview]

Totally agree, normally I wouldn't but the problem I have just now is that the songs I'm writing are heavilly tom based, it's not just the occasional fill, they are the basis of the drum patterns & if I don't tune them to these pitches it just sounds very wrong. The other problem I'm having is a lack of microphones & stands , my recording at the moment is just getting ideas down. Even if the drums did sound great I wouldn't be able to capture it as I only have an Sm57 & Sm57 Beta.

It might be easier to use samples in this case. In my experience, wood drums like to be tuned close to the pitch of the shell. If your shells don't happen to be in the same key as the song, you are out of luck.

 

[_brian_]

acoustically sound

"It might be easier to use samples in this case"

I refuse to use samples in any case , honestly I'd rather buy a new floor tom than to sample things no matter how much better the sample sounded

Thanks anyway

 

[Rimshot]

"It might be easier to use samples in this case"

I refuse to use samples in any case , honestly I'd rather buy a new floor tom than to sample things no matter how much better the sample sounded

Thanks anyway

Yay! I gotta admire that attitude! I hate samples!

Stick with it. I agree with all of the posters that have said it is a tuning problem. Once you get the skills to tune your drums well, you will be surprised at how you can make even cheap drums sound good (maybe not the greatest, but pretty damned good).

 

[ausrock]

Brian,

Where in the UK are you..........I may be able to put you on to someone for future help.

Chris

 

[Farview]

I refuse to use samples in any case , honestly I'd rather buy a new floor tom than to sample things no matter how much better the sample sounded

I was just thinking that you could tune the sample. Even if you took a sample of the drum you have, you could then pitch it up or down to the pitch you want.

You might have to get another tom. Tap the shell of the tom to find the pitch of the shell and pick the one that is closest to the pitch you want. What you are trying to do is much easier on a kit with a lot of toms-you can pick the ones that will tune to the pitch you need.

You could also look into Trick drums or Rocket Shell drums. Trick drums are made from aluminum, rocket shells are made from carbon fiber. You can tune them to just about any pitch you want, the limiting factor is the head.

Other than that, you are fighting a losing battle. You are nearly half an octave away from the note you want, and this is all for one song? Maybe you could borrow some toms from someone that will give you the pitch you are looking for.

 

[bongolation]

As a general rule, I much prefer tuning small drums down vs. big drums up

When I was going through the agonies of novice drum tuning, I encountered this same advice for small toms. I bought a Mapex fusion set and this was a concern for me as I didn't want these smaller toms sounding like timbales.

While nobody actually addressed the physics in their explanations, I believe what is going on is that instead of tuning to the shell's native note (which seems to be a standard -- though by no means a universal -- recommendation), you are tuning to a lower harmonic of that note.

There's also the advantage of reduced structural stress in tuning down rather than up. Modern thin drums seem awfully fragile to me. Cranking stuff up tight scares me.

I do agree with the advice that trying to tune toms to specific notes needed in a song will probably be a doomed venture unless one has a number of drums with which to work. Sampling is indicated.

 

[ausrock]

Unfortunately, regardless of what shell and or drum manufacturers may claim re shells' natural tone/pitch, the fact is that it's probably wise to regard it as a rough guide at best.

Shells are frequently produced as a "tube" and subsequently cut to the required length by the drum manufacturer and sure, at this stage it's possible to ascertain whether a specific shell has a particular pitch BUT the catch is........... 1) it's not reliably repeatable from shell to shell, and 2) to guarantee some consistancy of accurate pitch between shells of a set diameter, it means that the actual depth/length of each shell would probably vary.

Once you add lugs and a strainer, a shell's mass (which is what in part determines it's inherent pitch) has changed, take your pick of available heads and you throw another variable into the mix.

 

[_brian_]

Brian,

Where in the UK are you..........I may be able to put you on to someone for future help.

Chris

I live in scotland north ayrshire

"Unfortunately, regardless of what shell and or drum manufacturers may claim re shells' natural tone/pitch, the fact is that it's probably wise to regard it as a rough guide at best.

Shells are frequently produced as a "tube" and subsequently cut to the required length by the drum manufacturer and sure, at this stage it's possible to ascertain whether a specific shell has a particular pitch BUT the catch is........... 1) it's not reliably repeatable from shell to shell, and 2) to guarantee some consistancy of accurate pitch between shells of a set diameter, it means that the actual depth/length of each shell would probably vary.

Once you add lugs and a strainer, a shell's mass (which is what in part determines it's inherent pitch) has changed, take your pick of available heads and you throw another variable into the mix."

I thought things would have been a little more accurate than this. If I was a drummer & gigged then I would just leave the toms tuned to whatever pitch their shells best sounded, no problem there. But I'm only really interested in using them for recording so I can see myself going through this quite a lot the future. I see what you're getting at - everything starts to add to the mass of the drum etc, but why would a thin single ply clear stock head be able to be tuned a tone or two lower than an evans coated g2? You'd think the thicker head would add even more mass & contribute to a lower pitched shell? I also seated the head well few time as a last resort but this made no difference?

 

[Farview]

Unfortunately, regardless of what shell and or drum manufacturers may claim re shells' natural tone/pitch, the fact is that it's probably wise to regard it as a rough guide at best.

Shells are frequently produced as a "tube" and subsequently cut to the required length by the drum manufacturer and sure, at this stage it's possible to ascertain whether a specific shell has a particular pitch BUT the catch is........... 1) it's not reliably repeatable from shell to shell, and 2) to guarantee some consistancy of accurate pitch between shells of a set diameter, it means that the actual depth/length of each shell would probably vary.

Once you add lugs and a strainer, a shell's mass (which is what in part determines it's inherent pitch) has changed, take your pick of available heads and you throw another variable into the mix.

This is all true, but it doesn't stop you from tapping on the shell and listening to the pitch of the drum as it sits. That's the pitch that counts.

The reason this happens is because the drum will resonate at a certain frequency. With the heads tuned to that note, or a harmonic of that note, the shell reinforces the vibration of the heads. If you tune the heads to a note that fights with the resonance of the shell, it will sound like crap.

 

[ausrock]

I know little about tuning, I'm a guitarist who as time allows makes ply drum shells but I can't help but think that you may be wanting more from your kit than it can give although with perseverance you may get close. The minute you have timber involved you forfeit accurate repeatability as each piece of timber is different, in the case of ply shells you have anything from 6 piles upwards of potentially varying species with varying characteristics. While ever you're dealing with shells made by and/or for the major manufacturers you basically have to take what comes, deal with a custom/bespoke manufacturer and you have a chance of getting some control.................if you decide to replace the Mapex, I suggest you contact Gareth at Highwood Drums http://www.highwooddrums.co.uk/ and tell him I sent you. They make there own shells and will work with you to give you want you want.

Chris

 

[Greg_L]

Just play the damn drums already!

 

[Farview]

I know little about tuning, I'm a guitarist who as time allows makes ply drum shells but I can't help but think that you may be wanting more from your kit than it can give although with perseverance you may get close. The minute you have timber involved you forfeit accurate repeatability as each piece of timber is different, in the case of ply shells you have anything from 6 piles upwards of potentially varying species with varying characteristics. While ever you're dealing with shells made by and/or for the major manufacturers you basically have to take what comes, deal with a custom/bespoke manufacturer and you have a chance of getting some control.................if you decide to replace the Mapex, I suggest you contact Gareth at Highwood Drums http://www.highwooddrums.co.uk/ and tell him I sent you. They make there own shells and will work with you to give you want you want.

Of course, this will still only give you a set of drums that happen to work only with songs that are in the same key as this one song. If another instance like this comes up with a song that is in an incompatable key, you are right back where you started.

 

[Greg_L]

I agree with Farview. Just tune those bitches to their natural pitch and rock out with your cock out.