Are drums essential??

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Fishybob

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This is a serious issue that I hope that you guys can help with.

I consider myself as just above newbie. I've been recording in a home setup for 6 years pretty constantly. I'm now working on the most important project.

I often hear people say that if the song is no good then you can't make it good in the studio (you can make it sell though!). My best friend is a phenominal songwriter... the best I have ever seen (and I'M the one with the degree in it!). Fantastic songs, great looking guy, awsome voice, charm, charisma, bastard!

Anyway, we're starting work on his new ep tonight. The thing is I'm now starting to feel out of my depth! His songs are so good that I don't want to f**k them up!

We've played together for 12 years now but never really got the 'band' thing together - where do the drummers hide?! We have a wicked Bassist and a bunch of people to contribute to all of the other instruments - except drums!

His songs are 'real songs'. They work in any arrangement... He likes Bloc Party, Coldplay, Snow Patrol... that sort of thing. Every one has a great feel. Everyone could be a single!


Now...... Do I risk ruining this organic music by putting in fake drums??


I have Groove Agent and am a dab hand at programming (having never had a drummer).

ARE DRUMS ESSENTIAL??????????????????????

One thought is that if we get hold of a drummer later in the project he/she could always overdub and replace the drums if it's recorded to click.


Any advice is really needed... Not quite sure how to approach this... If the ep is good, this guy is signed - simple as that!
 
The short answer is "YES!!!". There's nothing like real drums.

A more involved answer would be well-programmed drums CAN be better than terribly recorded drums. And by "terribly recorded drums" I mean terribly tuned or played or tracked or mixed, etc... I'm a drummer and I still believe what I said. The problem with looped or programmed drums is that they're usually put together by a non-drummer. A non-drummer sometimes doesn't understand the subtleties of playing drums, like "ghost" notes, accents on the ride cymbal or high-hat, etc...So, I guess the best comprimise is to have a real drummer put together your looped or programmed drums.
 
I would program drums and then start tracking everything and if you don't feel the drums are good enough you can always find a guy later. Having the songs mostly done will be a big help to any drummer that you will use. It will give the drummer an idea of what you are going for. A big plus is that he will be able to play along with everything in time. It beats the hell out of a click track and scratch guitar/vocal.
 
You're right. It needs something driving it.

I did work with a few great drummers while at Uni and they taught me bits about ghost beats and accents. I just love REAL drums and don't want these programmed sounds to detract from an overall good sound.

I think I'll program something simple and get him to play to that... then get to work on the details.
(problem is, he lives miles from me and we need to get as many guitar vox tracks as possible by the end of the weekend. I can then program and record everything else without him needing to be there)


One thought... any drummers want a recording project???? ;)
 
If I had some nice cymbals here, I'd definitely try to make time and do it. I'm a bit busy, though.
 
EdWonbass said:
I would program drums and then start tracking everything and if you don't feel the drums are good enough you can always find a guy later.
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Listen to the man..That's the perfect solution. The drummer can even use the programmed drum track as the click track later.
 
SCORE!

That'll be the plan then.




... I'm starting to get excited now! :cool:




Cheers guys ;)
 
RAMI said:
Listen to the man..That's the perfect solution. The drummer can even use the programmed drum track as the click track later.
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Yup. I agree with these guys. Also, getting a good live drum sound in the home studio environment can be a challenge. You might check into some of the better drum looping sets like Drums On Demand or Beta Monkey. I use Drums on Demand myself, and they go together well. Almost idiot proof.
 
Are drums essential?

We released a CD last year that had 14 cuts and not drum one on it. So no, drums aren't necessary. A lot of people can't keep good time and rely on drum machines to do it for them, or they record styles of music where drums are expected...but "No."
 
There are a couple of tracks that would really benifit from the space where the drums sit being left open. Most of the tunes will be done as described above but a couple will be percussion less. Should give a bit more dynamic over the whole CD that way.
 
Alright ... first off, if you have to ask if drums are necessary, then they probably are.

If it's not a music style that's dependent on programmed / sequences drums and loops -- i.e. hip-hop, industrial, etc. then you probably need real drums if you want it to sound even halfway decent.

Second, if you're talking about adding drums later ... I wouldn't. That should be the first thing that gets tracked, and it should serve as the guide for all the overdubs.

If you have everyone play to a click or programmed beat, and then add drums later ... I'd beware. It rarely works out. Don't get me wrong -- it can work out ... it just doesn't very often. I don't know why. Most drummers can't play to a click or to an existing beat and stay "on" the way they need to. You'd better be working with someone who's got his shit together.
 
if you're talking about adding drums later ... I wouldn't. That should be the first thing that gets tracked, and it should serve as the guide for all the overdubs.
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Not neccassarilly. I wouldn't say that's a rule.

Most drummers can't play to a click or to an existing beat and stay "on" the way they need to. You'd better be working with someone who's got his shit together.
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Most GOOD drummers can. If a drummer can't keep time, don't hire him in the first place. "You better be working with a drummer that has his shit together" goes without saying anyway...Why would you work with a drummer who doesn't have his shit together?
 
Yeah, I'm in a similar situation. But I believe that drums are NOT always essential. It depends on the feel of the song. AND.....finding the right (or ANY) drummer has been the biggest challenge of my life. I have no idea where they hide. What I am doing in the mean time is programming my own beats so I can at least get the songs as "finished" as possible. I am not willing to let the lack of a dedicated and talented drummer slow down the process.

As far as your friends songs being so good that if you do anything it will screw them up - I don't know what to say. If his songs are THAT good, all you should have to do is throw them together real quick, demo style, and drummers will pop out of the woodwork begging to play. Really good work speaks for itself and talented people respond more to that that to someone saying "these songs are soooo good - we're gonna get signed." Ya know?? We have ALL heard that line a thousand times. What we have NOT heard a thousand times is music that really IS that good.

Slap together a demo real quick and get it out there. If it is good, drummers will repond. But extreme enthusiasm and superduper charisma does not a fantastic record make......but good luck...I wish you the best in your efforts to get signed. :cool:
 
I think chessrock is right about not adding the drums after everything else is already recorded. Go ahead and lay down a couple of tracks then try to add some midi drums afterward and you'll see how difficult it is. The drummer sets the initial timing and having to worry about playing strictly in perfect time can kill the drummer's performance.

I think if you're gonna collab with a drummer online, you should try to find one that is willing to "work" rather than just slapping down some drum tracks and calling it a day. You might have to roughly assemble your songs and present them to the drummer, let him lay down the drum tracks, then redo all the tracks to his drum lines. It will probably be difficult though without being able to actually play together while he plays the drum lines.
 
Good songs.....deal is on the way...drums and proper rec. can be done later

This is what I would have thought is the case.

Off course the drums will add. something to your rec. but as a demo to get attention it probably is not that essential, just make sure songs are good.

Seems that you already have a good idea how to go about things, so all the best of luck.

Eddie
 
RAMI said:
Most GOOD drummers can.
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True, but most drummers aren't good. :D That's kinda' what I'm trying to get at. And even a lot of the good ones don't necessarily feel comfortable playing to a click or an existing beat. Especially if they're the type who do a lot of fills, etc.

I've witnessed perfectly skilled drummers attempt to track this way, and time and again, after two or three measures, they're off on their own beat and everything falls apart. The drummer gets frustrated and then the overall mood of the session goes to the crapper. And the fact that you've got a novice engineer at the healm doesn't help things, because he doesn't necessarily know how to set up the kind of headphone mix that will make it easier on him. Nor does he have the experience dealing with headcase drummers who start blaming the click track, their headphones, and everything else for their own inability to lock on to the beat. :D

"You better be working with a drummer that has his shit together" goes without saying anyway...
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Yea, but sadly, most don't. And the fact that Fishybob doesn't have a lot of experience with this stuff ... makes me think it might be a good idea to state the obvious to him. This method of tracking he's considering just always seems to sound a lot easier on paper than it is in practice, and he should know that. As a novice, if he wants to lessen the chance for problems, he should track live (best option), or drums first and spare himself the potential headaches.

If this is like ... way too difficult or impossible to arrange, :eek: then the session should be re-scheduled to a better time when it can. If this artist is so good, then I'm sure he'll still be good next week after they can a drummer to come by.

.
 
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Yeah, I see what you're saying. I was just in a nit-picking mood. Besides, I'm a drummer, so I got all defensive and shit....:)
 
chessrock said:
(Takes foot out of mouth) Then you know I didn't mean what I said about "headcase drummers," right? :D
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Oh!...You mean...that's a bad thing??? D'OH!
 
TravisinFlorida said:
I think if you're gonna collab with a drummer online, you should try to find one that is willing to "work" rather than just slapping down some drum tracks and calling it a day.
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HI Are there Drummers online
I'm a songwriter guitarist and the drums are killing me.
I'm trying to use an SR 16 but I find the timming hard to get right as feel for the song.
Do drummers do online stuff?
If so where do they hand out?

Cheers
Bob
 
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