Are drum triggers cheating?

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Greg_L

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Me and some friends were talking about this the other day. Triggers seem to be getting more and more prevalent in live music as well as recording. I don't really know how they work and don't see much need for them, but I'm of the opinion that while they're pretty lame, the drummer is still technically playing the drums. They're definitely not as bad as a drum machine. My buddies think they're blasphemy.

So how exactly do they work? Do you need a MIDI controller or something to use them? Why do so many people use them now, and do yall think they're sort of like cheating?
 
I think, making a final product you are happy with is what really matters. Real drums, that sound so bad, you cringe, or samples that sound awesome?

I don't even have drums, so I use samples, and program with DFHS, and EZ-Drummer. For me, cheating is when I get a real drummer to actually help me.... :D
 
I guess I fall into the purist category. Little things (nuances) that real drummers and drums do don't translate through triggers. If you just want the monster 2 and 4, triggers are cool but that ain't my cup of meat, ya know what I mean?
 
Yes you need a MIDI-Converter to turn the trigger signals into MIDI data for use with other MIDI gear. Some sound modules (i.e. Alesis DM series or Roland V-Drums), have inputs for the triggers and does the conversion internally.

As far as using the triggers as a way of being able to substitute actual recorded drums for samples, I'm of the purist-genre, and am against it. If drums are setup, and recorded properly, their should be no need for that. That's not to say all circumstances allow for ideal recording of drums, and of course having a recorded MIDI track of the actual performance can help out in certain situations.

That said, I do (especially as a keyboard player too) like the possibilities triggers open to a drummer to use sounds that you may not have available through acoustic gear, for live performances. Whether that be electronic drum sounds, world percussion sounds that might not be obtainable without significant investments which may not be feasible, or having at your disposal sounds that lie completely outside the percussive realm, as examples.

I guess the only real answer to your question though, will be the one you come up with. If you can utilize technology to your benefit, and achieve an end result, that you couldn't possibly have achieved without using that technology, then I'd say it's not really cheating. And if it is cheating, then as a drummer, you've only fallen into the category of 99% of recorded musicians since the birth of the computer as a recording medium. I wouldn't sweat too much over it. Just my 2 cents....
 
Speaking from the side of extreme metal, triggers are almost a necessity at the speeds some poeple play the kick drums. The guys who are pushing 250+ bpm 16ths on the kicks are playing so fast that they can't put enough power behind it to really cut through in a live setting, it's just physics. And for recording why mess around with a mic when consistency and sound quality are what people want with blazing kick drums? I don't think it's blasphemy at all.
Now, if you're just sitting there playing a skank beat in a punk band or regular rock music, I don't think there's really any need for them.
 
Atterion said:
...As far as using the triggers as a way of being able to substitute actual recorded drums for samples, I'm of the purist-genre, and am against it...
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Is your keyboard electronic or real (purely acoustic?)
 
is overdubbing cheating? is editing a guitar part after it's been tracked and replacing a couple places where the strings buzzed cheating? is editing a midi keyboard part to correct a wrong note (or duration) cheating? is taking the snare track back out through a speaker sitting on top of a snare, miking the snare and re-recording it to get a little more "crack" cheating? is using eq, compression, or autotune cheating?

the way i see it, if using triggers gets you closer to your intended sonic goal, then it's not cheating. at least, it's no more cheating than anything else that goes on in the studio or live these days (which some consider to be a LOT of cheating). and live, how many times have you seen a solo artist and they're playing karaoke style to some backing tracks? it's all the same to me, really.....

.....b/c these days music isn't so much about the integrity of it as much as it is about having a product that will sell (and that's another debate in its entirety). when you're trying to do it for a living, you've gotta sell to make money, right? well, if triggers help the drums to sound more convincing and "good", then why not use them? why settle for "crappy sound" simply to for the sake of integrity and possibly to the detriment of your career?

that said, triggers are the norm in some types of music (metal) and trying to do that sort of music without using triggers just won't give the band what they're looking for.......whereas they're wholly inappropriate in some types of music (jazz, etc).

personally, i prefer to record "real" drums and augment with samples when needed/desired via drumagog (or something similar).


cheers,
wade
 
Dogman said:
I think, making a final product you are happy with is what really matters. Real drums, that sound so bad, you cringe, or samples that sound awesome?

I don't even have drums, so I use samples, and program with DFHS, and EZ-Drummer. For me, cheating is when I get a real drummer to actually help me.... :D
Click to expand...

I also agree. It doesn't matter how you get to the final product, just as long as you like it.

For me, using real drums or drum triggers depend on application. If I'm going to be working on a project that's suppose to sound live & natural, I'll use real drums. If the project calls for a sound that's mainly synth based or whatever you want to call it, I'll use drum triggers. (<< supposedly I worded it wrong :confused: )
 
It's only cheating if someone put a restraint on you that said you could only use acoustic drums and you still tried to slip it in. :p
 
I don't think triggers are cheating - as already indicated, the final result is what's important and the means justifies the end. Technology provides so many options, digital keyboards, sampling, etc. - triggers are just another tool.

Now, as a drummer, I have never found a trigger or e-drum pad that can track the subtle nuances of performance (ghost notes, etc.) and anything more than 8th notes start to show the "machine gun effect". I agree that if the solid 1/4 notes or 1/8 notes are what you want - triggers can do the trick - but if you want a living breathing performance - not so much.

I do think that when they are used to hide poor playing technique (a drummer can't hit the snare consistent - or the referenced case where a drummer is trying to play such fast kick patterns that he/she can generate consistent technique) - well then triggers are a crutch rather than a tool.
 
One other thing to remember - the human ear is certainly fine tuned enough to tell the difference between "real" drums and samples. Will the listener be consciously aware of it? For the vast majority, no. But the ear will tell the brain that something is *different*.

Ah, memories of the moment when I was listening to my Matchbox 20 Mad Season CD and realized, "Wait a minute, those drums are FAKE!"
 
metalhead28 said:
Speaking from the side of extreme metal, triggers are almost a necessity at the speeds some poeple play the kick drums. The guys who are pushing 250+ bpm 16ths on the kicks are playing so fast that they can't put enough power behind it to really cut through in a live setting, it's just physics. And for recording why mess around with a mic when consistency and sound quality are what people want with blazing kick drums? I don't think it's blasphemy at all.
Now, if you're just sitting there playing a skank beat in a punk band or regular rock music, I don't think there's really any need for them.
Click to expand...
My current band is a Black Metal band and we are always pushing the envelope, I might have to give that a try. I know some bands (i.e. Borknagar), don't even record with real bass drums, but instead electronic kick pads, just for that reason.
 
I tend to use real percussion and drums when I want the sound of real percussion and drums. If I want some other kind of sound, I tend to use the DrumKAT or something else triggering something electronic. But I don't always follow those rules. I figure you do what works.

Cheers,

Otto
 
If you are playing it, you are playing it. This is just as stupid as calling a double pedal a "cheater" pedal. You aren't cheating anything, it isn't any easier to play than having two separate kicks. Triggers aren't easier to play than real drums.
 
Farview said:
If you are playing it, you are playing it. This is just as stupid as calling a double pedal a "cheater" pedal. You aren't cheating anything, it isn't any easier to play than having two separate kicks. Triggers aren't easier to play than real drums.
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That's how I describe it. With triggers, you still have to play the drums.
 
Farview said:
If you are playing it, you are playing it. This is just as stupid as calling a double pedal a "cheater" pedal. You aren't cheating anything, it isn't any easier to play than having two separate kicks. Triggers aren't easier to play than real drums.
Click to expand...

Actually, in my experience with dedicated MIDI drum pads over the last 12 years or so, first on the TrapKAT and now the DrumKAT, playing the drum pads is more difficult in some ways than real drums, because the drum pads don't have the same bounce and feel. The degree of care and precision in controlling drum strokes that is required to get the right feel and consistency of tone, volume and timing is actually greater on the pads.

OTOH, the small size of the DrumKAT, for instance, makes moving between instruments easier and faster than moving around on my real kit. I would assume, but can't say for sure, that triggers on drums, if they're working properly, would not have this "feel" problem, though there are still the issues of the responsiveness and naturalness of the triggered synth sound, assuming you want something that sounds generally like the sound of a real drum being played.

As I mentioned before, I tend to go to the ends of the spectrum: playing real drums (or real anything) when I want real sounds and playing synths when I want other sounds and staying out of the middle where you either try to make real drums sound perfect or make synth drums sound real.

Cheers,

Otto
 
I usually record with triggers, but not my drummer. He's so bad on timing it would take a year to record 4 songs, with or without acoustic drums. I don't even record him. he sits by my side and I write every little thing he does on guitar pro. Then edit it to make it more natural (random velocity and quantified hits) and insert it in ezdrummer.

Would you call it cheating!??!?! :D :D :D

cheating or not, it's still worth, much less time consuming, final result is about the same :rolleyes:
 
I like to use triggered kick which I mix in with the live kick.For one thing,lots of kick sounds,and you can make it cut like a knife.
 
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