Applying Stereo Reverb in AA 1.5
- Thread starter Bartman
- Start date
aaroncomp
1-20-2009
To use a plugin, such as reverb, click on the "FX" button for the desired track. Then, select the plugin you wish to use with the desired settings. This will allow the plugin to be used in realtime without altering the track. I hope this is what you were asking? Or is this more about the mono-->stereo thing?
Bartman
I count on me
Thanks....
I was asking specifically about how to apply a stereo reverb to a mono source (vocal) in AA 1.5
I know how to insert effects to individual tracks, apply them via a buss to a track, tracks or a submix. I've figured out how to pan the effects with the source, opposite the source, etc.
Just can't figure out how to (or if I should even be trying to do this) put a mono lead vocal within a stero reverb space. My lead vocals seem to be properly recorded and playback fine but they just don't "float" in their own natural space within my mixes. No sense of depth at all. The guitar and drum tracks I treat with reverb sound just fine.
I was asking specifically about how to apply a stereo reverb to a mono source (vocal) in AA 1.5
I know how to insert effects to individual tracks, apply them via a buss to a track, tracks or a submix. I've figured out how to pan the effects with the source, opposite the source, etc.
Just can't figure out how to (or if I should even be trying to do this) put a mono lead vocal within a stero reverb space. My lead vocals seem to be properly recorded and playback fine but they just don't "float" in their own natural space within my mixes. No sense of depth at all. The guitar and drum tracks I treat with reverb sound just fine.
dobro
Well-known member
My understanding of this is that you can run a stereo verb on a mono track, but you don't get anything more than you would running a mono verb on a mono track. If I understand it rightly, you need to have recorded the source in stereo before stereo verb makes much difference.
However, if you want a bit more depth to the vocal, I suppose you could clone the vocal track, and then pan the two tracks left and right. Using EQ to make the tracks sound different from each other, applying reverb to each of the clones would then result in a vocal with more depth I think. I haven't tried this, but I bet it would work.
The other thing you can try doesn't involve reverb at all. Try 10-20 ms of delay. One way to do this: clone the original mono vocal track, and then pan the two tracks left and right. Drag the clone 10-20 ms or so right of the original. Instant depth. Again, I haven't tried this with vocals, but it works with guitar.
However, if you want a bit more depth to the vocal, I suppose you could clone the vocal track, and then pan the two tracks left and right. Using EQ to make the tracks sound different from each other, applying reverb to each of the clones would then result in a vocal with more depth I think. I haven't tried this, but I bet it would work.
The other thing you can try doesn't involve reverb at all. Try 10-20 ms of delay. One way to do this: clone the original mono vocal track, and then pan the two tracks left and right. Drag the clone 10-20 ms or so right of the original. Instant depth. Again, I haven't tried this with vocals, but it works with guitar.
Bartman
I count on me
Thanks
Thanks for the reply Dobro.
I've done all of the things you suggested. They are indeed good suggestions and do add depth. I'm looking for something else.
Maybe I'm not asking the question properly or maybe what I want to accomplish can't be done in AA???
Last night I created a stereo sub-mix of two vocal tracks, then applied a stereo verb. It sounded better, but didn't "float" in its own space within the mix. This is real frustrating for me because I'm getting all the other sounds I should be able to get with the gear/facilities I have at my limited skill level.
Thanks again.
Bart
Thanks for the reply Dobro.
I've done all of the things you suggested. They are indeed good suggestions and do add depth. I'm looking for something else.
Maybe I'm not asking the question properly or maybe what I want to accomplish can't be done in AA???
Last night I created a stereo sub-mix of two vocal tracks, then applied a stereo verb. It sounded better, but didn't "float" in its own space within the mix. This is real frustrating for me because I'm getting all the other sounds I should be able to get with the gear/facilities I have at my limited skill level.
Thanks again.
Bart
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Bart,
Im not sure exactly what you mean by "float in its own space" in the mix, but here are some general tips; maybe one of them will jog you off in the right direction...
1.) You can create more "spectral space" for the vocals by EQing out the least signifigant bands on the other tracks. For example, a low-pass filter kneeing around 5K-6K applied to tracks that dont need it (e.g. bass, kick, etc.), or rolling off the low end on vocals or synths, etc. can create a lot more "space" for other tracks w/o signifigantly affecting the sound of the EQ'd tracks.
2.) If it's stage/pan space you are talking about, do not stack your reverbs. In otherwords, if you have a stereo verb on a keyboard, for example, that is panned hard L/R, do not do the same thing with the vocal verb. Pan those wet sounds elsewhere in the panorama, preferebly in a "hole" not occupied by the other tracks.
3.) To make your vocals "stick out" better on one side, apply your verb with a small anount of preverb -- or even a 20ms delay instead of a verb -- to the other side. Thanks to the Haas effect, this will actually give an apparent psychoacoustic boost to the loudness on the dry side.
HTH,
G.
Im not sure exactly what you mean by "float in its own space" in the mix, but here are some general tips; maybe one of them will jog you off in the right direction...
1.) You can create more "spectral space" for the vocals by EQing out the least signifigant bands on the other tracks. For example, a low-pass filter kneeing around 5K-6K applied to tracks that dont need it (e.g. bass, kick, etc.), or rolling off the low end on vocals or synths, etc. can create a lot more "space" for other tracks w/o signifigantly affecting the sound of the EQ'd tracks.
2.) If it's stage/pan space you are talking about, do not stack your reverbs. In otherwords, if you have a stereo verb on a keyboard, for example, that is panned hard L/R, do not do the same thing with the vocal verb. Pan those wet sounds elsewhere in the panorama, preferebly in a "hole" not occupied by the other tracks.
3.) To make your vocals "stick out" better on one side, apply your verb with a small anount of preverb -- or even a 20ms delay instead of a verb -- to the other side. Thanks to the Haas effect, this will actually give an apparent psychoacoustic boost to the loudness on the dry side.
HTH,
G.
Bartman
I count on me
Thanks Southside
Thanks for the reply.
I think the issue is something else (maybe my preamp and/or mic's) because I know about and judiciously use all of the good advice you describe.
It's just real frustrating to have a mix that sounds (relatively) good, except for the lead vocals...which happens to be the most important part of the tune. I think I may try renting some higher quality pre's & mic's to see if it makes a difference.
Thanks again.
Bart
Thanks for the reply.
I think the issue is something else (maybe my preamp and/or mic's) because I know about and judiciously use all of the good advice you describe.
It's just real frustrating to have a mix that sounds (relatively) good, except for the lead vocals...which happens to be the most important part of the tune. I think I may try renting some higher quality pre's & mic's to see if it makes a difference.
Thanks again.
Bart
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
"Real" reverb vs. "Sears" reverb
Manuack, the short answer is that your question answers itself: the main reason that your plugins aren't giving you a "real sutdio" sound is because plugins are not real studio reverbs.
There are always exceptions to any general rule of thumb, but in general, software plugins are simply inferior to pro quality outboard gear. There are reasons why you can pay hundreds to thousands of dollars for a professional rack-mounted reverb (or to build a physical reverberation chamber) and you can get software plugins for under two hundred dollars down to free. It's not just because the cost to manufacture physical components is higher than the cost to duplicate software (though that admittedly is a part of it.) It's mostly because there is a difference in the quality of the results they produce.
The longer answer is that you can probably get better sound out of the plugin reverbs you have, but it will take some expirimentation to determine - for your tastes - which reverb settings (plate vs. hall, etc.) work best with which types of instruments, how much predelay and reverb to apply for how long, what the wet/dry signal mix should be for each application, etc.
The medium answer is that although there are no hard-and-fast rules, there are some general tips that can work as a starting point.
1.) Don't overdo the reverb. Often times, a just little can go a long way. Most of the dubious mixes I have heard (and created myself, I admit) where the reverb was a problem were because there was just too much reverb being applied. Back off the level and amount of reverb used, or increase the ration of dry signal to wet, and often times you find it to be much more pleasurable.
2.) Set the delay time to the track’s tempo for max depth. For shallower depth, set to tempo divisions. You can calculate delay times with this formula:
60,000/BPM = ¼ note delay in ms. For example if your frack is running at, say, 120 beats per minute, then you can calculate 60,000/120 = 500, meaning that a delay time of 500ms is equivalent to the length of a quarter note. 250ms would be the lengh of an eighth note, etc.
3.) On a mono reverb, Return the wet verb to the dry mono source at the same pan to strengthen the sound (esp. especially acoustic or vocal.) Return the wet at a different pan than the dry for an ambience effect.
4.) On a stereo reverb you can sometimes enhance the effect by slightly brightening one side and darkening the other side with just a little EQ.
There is a wole lot more to it all, but maybe those can get you started?
HTH,
G.
Manuack, the short answer is that your question answers itself: the main reason that your plugins aren't giving you a "real sutdio" sound is because plugins are not real studio reverbs.
There are always exceptions to any general rule of thumb, but in general, software plugins are simply inferior to pro quality outboard gear. There are reasons why you can pay hundreds to thousands of dollars for a professional rack-mounted reverb (or to build a physical reverberation chamber) and you can get software plugins for under two hundred dollars down to free. It's not just because the cost to manufacture physical components is higher than the cost to duplicate software (though that admittedly is a part of it.) It's mostly because there is a difference in the quality of the results they produce.
The longer answer is that you can probably get better sound out of the plugin reverbs you have, but it will take some expirimentation to determine - for your tastes - which reverb settings (plate vs. hall, etc.) work best with which types of instruments, how much predelay and reverb to apply for how long, what the wet/dry signal mix should be for each application, etc.
The medium answer is that although there are no hard-and-fast rules, there are some general tips that can work as a starting point.
1.) Don't overdo the reverb. Often times, a just little can go a long way. Most of the dubious mixes I have heard (and created myself, I admit) where the reverb was a problem were because there was just too much reverb being applied. Back off the level and amount of reverb used, or increase the ration of dry signal to wet, and often times you find it to be much more pleasurable.
2.) Set the delay time to the track’s tempo for max depth. For shallower depth, set to tempo divisions. You can calculate delay times with this formula:
60,000/BPM = ¼ note delay in ms. For example if your frack is running at, say, 120 beats per minute, then you can calculate 60,000/120 = 500, meaning that a delay time of 500ms is equivalent to the length of a quarter note. 250ms would be the lengh of an eighth note, etc.
3.) On a mono reverb, Return the wet verb to the dry mono source at the same pan to strengthen the sound (esp. especially acoustic or vocal.) Return the wet at a different pan than the dry for an ambience effect.
4.) On a stereo reverb you can sometimes enhance the effect by slightly brightening one side and darkening the other side with just a little EQ.
There is a wole lot more to it all, but maybe those can get you started?
HTH,
G.
Assuming you are using the multitrack view, to add stereo reverb, try the "Full reverb" reverb, but ensure that BOTH the "combine source left and right" and the "include direct" tickboxes are NOT ticked. Reduce the "early reflections" slider to zero.
Or try the 'Studio Reverb' - Vocal Reverb (Large) preset - reduce damping to zero, likewise Early Reflection, and max stereo width.
Either of these (and doubtless others) should give you a decent stereo reverb of your mono track.
Or try the 'Studio Reverb' - Vocal Reverb (Large) preset - reduce damping to zero, likewise Early Reflection, and max stereo width.
Either of these (and doubtless others) should give you a decent stereo reverb of your mono track.