any ol' mic vs. any ol' mic....what should I get?

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Harvey - I got a second NT1 a few months ago and was surprised to hear that it sounded slightly different than the first one - I'd expected an identical sound. They're nice mics, but they don't sound the same. So quality control might be an issue. Or maybe it's that way with any cheap mics. I've been wanting more from my C1000 than it's providing, so I'll check out the Marshalls along with others - thanks for the heads up.

Hey, if you do get tired of this place and its wicked ways, there's gonna be a truckload of people trailing along over to r.a.p. :D
 
Hey Dobro, I got my NT-1 almost 2 years ago when they were still like $299... I've heard that the QC has gone down since then, or they aren't being built in the same place or something like that. Dunno, just rumors.

Or just maybe...

Yeah, I've got a vintage NT-1 in my mic cabinet, whaddaya think about that, fellas!! :D
 
While I value the advice of studio owners in this forum, they are definitely coming from a particular perspective on how to do things. For one, EVERY single working engineer I have spoken to has basically bashed home recording at every opportunity as terminally amateur (and more on account of the gear used than anything else). Never mind the fact that some of the demos by these guys had that very demoey feel of a wanna be pro production with vocals that were 6db too up front, reverb trails that were al over the place, the snare that gives you tinnitis after every thwack, etc Part of the amteur bashing has to do with the small studio generally being on the endangered species list bec of the home studio. Engineers feel that and I can imagine it must hurt. Even if most home studios have bad equipment and lousy amateur engineers, amateurs still think theyre doing it right and they are not going to go to a studio to do it righter. Especially after spending all that money on gear. Generally.

Clearly though, nobody will argue that there is much more to a PROFESSIONAL recording than good equipment and while 90% of home rec stuff blows hard there is a minority out there that has gotten great results (not million dollar results, just great highly listenable recordings) by using solid low-medium level gear intelligently ( maybe not NT1s though ;-] ). It is for this minority that I speak. Ed and all the rest of the experienced pros, you are entitled to your rant but there isnt ONE way to do things. There are very, very few cold hard facts that are indisputable and I personally am tired of people who endlessly speak as if there are. For every supposed fact there are outstanding examples of music done completely counter to conventional wisdom which stands as some of the greatest music of western civilization.

While I have heard exceedingly few MP3s from any pro audio forum that could be called pro I think there is a range of what is professional and what is not. On this bulletin board as well there is a range of experience, there arent only PROS and AMATEURS. There is a whole range of people with dif experiences and dif levels of mastery, from amateur with bad equipment to amatuer with pro equipment from experienced with moderate equipment to pro with moderate equipment, from somewhat experienced with pro equipment to pro with pro equipment, etc and so dont expect so called novices to gather round the feet of ancient wise ones to eat the droppings from their tables.

Again, any great recording is probably something like 85% enigineer:15% gear in terms of contribution. People should talk less about gear and more about how they do WHAT they do with their gear.

-Gus
 
I think the problem here is a mixup of professional vs home recording. There are people who want a professional sound without wanting to put down either "professional time" or "professional money" on the job. If you want a professional record, you need a professional studio and a professional engineer and a professional producer. Then somebody will say "Hey, what about <insert some successful guy, like Moby, here>! He recorded everything in his private studio!"
Well, that person is professional, isn't he? Case dismissed.

Homerecording is fun, and even with a pretty cheap homesetup you can get decent results. But you can't get professional ones. Not everybody realized this. But most people do, and most people here doesn't expect to get a commercially sounding CD out of their $2000 setup.

So, sonusman is probably right. The mics like NT1 probably isn't as good as the really expensive stuff. And a Mackie board is not an SSL. But I think most people that recommend these things are quite aware of that, and that is something I think sonusman maybe doesn't realize. The people who ask for recommendations here are not professionals and can't afford professional equipment. A professional studio doesn't buy ONE mic. They have loads of them, so they can get the one that colors the sound just right in that specific instance. Homerecorders doesn't have that luxury, but need to buy ONE mic that will do a good job on everything.
When somebody asked for recommendations on close field monitor speakers on recording.org, nobody mentioned Yorksville YSM-1, or Tannoy Reveals or Event 20/20. Why not? Because the guy asking for recommendations had a budget of $2000. Not the $200 the YSM-1 costs. Of course the $2000 monitors recommended will sound better, and it will be much easier to get a professional sound with them, but for $2000 you can get a decent home studio. If you have $2000 to spend on your home studio, buying the $2000 speakers is a rather stupid thing to do.

This is HOMERECORDING.com. Not PRORECORDING.com. We are all on a budget here. We should not forget that when giving out recommendations.
 
An analogy......

A kid, 13 or 14, wants to start playing guitar. He wants an electric 'cause they're cool, and because Joe Schmoe plays one. He's only got a couple hundred bucks. Nobody tells him to get the vintage Les Paul instead of a Rogue something-or-other; on the contrary, most people would say get the guitar you can afford and start practicing.

There's probably a lot of people here who really can only afford a NT1. Should they not feed the kids to get a Neuman? should they put off their dream of making music until they have more dough? I think the best advise for these folks is to GET STARTED. Realize that you're not going to record the next platinum - selling Grammy winner and get to it.

Also...... I depend heavily on this board for advice. When someone gives their opinion, I try to always take it with a grain of salt - after all, they may not know much more than me! Not that the number of posts, or a fancy title, necessarily mean anything, but........ some people obviously have a great deal of knowledge, express themselves very well, and are more than willing to help and advise others. So Ed, and Mr. Gerst.... er, Harvey, and Blue Bear and John Sayers and all the others, thanks.
 
jitteringjim - I got my first NT1 about a year and a half ago, the second one six months ago - maybe that explains the difference in sound, if the QC has slid a bit recently.

Ed - your advice not to scrimp on mics or monitors is ace. But consider two things: first, your criticism of the delusion that one mic will be a universal solvent for the hopeful home recordist. Yet if someone with limited funds (95% of this board?) does decide to "splash out" or court credit card debt for the sake of a better mic, then he/she's gonna be even *more* inclined to want that mic to do everything well. There goes the mic cabinet... :D

Second, you said it yourself: "I have said it so damn many times that I am sick of saying it, ANY mic can work 'reasonably' well in ANY situation IF you have a good source sound, good monitors to hear it on, and some idea of what actually sounds 'reasonable'." Well if ANY mic can work reasonably well with experience and skill, then experience and technique is more important even than gear, actually. JusumPilgrim said it too.

Yeah people have mistaken assumptions and unreasonable hopes, and maybe the only antidote to despairing is to laugh at it when you see it, but it's knowledge that's gonna save their ass, not spending more on a mic. E-S-P-E-C-I-A-L-L-Y if they're on a budget.
 
Great, I get 8th grade psychology evaluation from you in another forum dobro, and now you are trying to school me.

I like how you assume that I just started recording with a bunch of great gear. Like I was never the guy at home with a 4 track using the Line out from my amp and a Casio keyboard for drum sound.

I like how you assume, and feel the need, to explain what I REALLY meant.

I love how you keep making these references to my "cheap" gear I use for recording. A Soundcraft Ghost cheap. Ha!!! And by the way, the AT 4033, while now considered a "cheap" mic used to retail for around $700 years ago, and that mic has been around for a long time now. Not exactly "cheap".

Anyway dobro, notice I said "reasonable sound".

Next, you comment about spending more money on a better mic not saving their ass is totally wrong. The average joe is going to get their butt saved much more with a higher quality mic then a cheapo NT1. It is the actually the other way around from how you said it.

Anyway, I won't get baited into a silly arguement about mics with a bunch of people that really don't know that much about them and haven't used buy a few in their life. That was really the point of this thread.

I have been on this board for a long time now, and have my share of posts. I can say with a great amount of certainty that the mic forum is by and far the most confrontational, and most disrespectful place on this BBS towards professionals. I have seen more bogus advice in this forum then anywhere else.

I wind up seeing the fruition from following this bad advice too. Those people wind up in the Mixing forum asking how to remove annoying 4-7kHz crap from their cheap mics through little mackie mixers. :)

So, go ahead and "think" you know your shit boys. While me and Harvery don't exactly see eye to eye about lower end mics, we can at least have a civil discussion without breaking down to name calling and whatnot. Actually, Harvey was suggesting mics that I in fact HADN'T heard yet, and obviously of much higher quality then previous models the manufacture has put out.

Anyway.

Just another guy who tried to help, but got silly arguements.

Ed
 
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hahaha...I like your signature, sonusman. I dunno if its related to any inherent crankiness but being hypercritical is essential to being a good engineer/musician/producer. Keep on keepin on. :D
 
"Great, I get 8th grade psychology evaluation from you in another forum dobro, and now you
are trying to school me."

8th grade psychology doesn't ring a bell. Which thread was that?


"I like how you assume that I just started recording with a bunch of great gear. Like I was never the guy at home with a 4 track using the Line out from my amp and a Casio keyboard for drum sound... I love how you keep making these references to my "cheap" gear I use for recording. A Soundcraft Ghost cheap. Ha!!! And by the way, the AT 4033, while now considered a "cheap" mic used to retail for around $700 years ago, and that mic has been around for a long time now. Not exactly "cheap".

I know about the Soundcraft Ghost. I also know about the ART Tube pres, the Behringer compressor, the C1000s. You get good results. Point proved.


"Anyway dobro, notice I said "reasonable sound".

Anyway, Ed, that's why I said learning technique was even more important than good gear.


"Anyway, I won't get baited into a silly arguement about mics with a bunch of people that really don't know that much about them and haven't used buy a few in their life. That was really the point of this thread."

For me, the point of this thread is to try to learn something through exchanging ideas. For me, it's not a silly argument - I'm trying to work something out. If I don't understand something as clearly as you, then help me understand it better.

"I say... that the mic forum is by and far the most confrontational, and most disrespectful place on this BBS towards professionals... While me and Harvery don't exactly see eye to eye about lower end mics, we can at least have a civil discussion without breaking down to name calling and whatnot."

My post contained neither disrespect nor name-calling. And what about what Harvey had to say about there being some good lower-end mics? He mentioned Marshalls - you know anything about that? Or am I being silly and disrespectful?
 
Sorry dobro, that whole last post wasn't aimed towards you exclusively.

I will not mention the posts in "another" forum because it is Area 51 it seems.

Behringer Composers (the original models) are exact rip off's of $1000 Drawmer compressors with a better Peak Limiter section.

ART Tube mic pre's. It is the ONE cheap piece of gear I will recommend again and again and again, providing that their QC doesn't go down the tube (pun intended). It would seem that QC comes and goes with them.

C 1000 S. I use it for ride cymbals and very special application (meaning, case by case) micing of amplified keyboards that need a lot of thinning out. They make REASONABLE overheads on a budget (ie, my recent mp3 uploads where the over head is a C1000). I use this mic for NOTHING critical.

Now we get into subjective areas. I do not believe ANYTHING I have tracked, mixed, mastered, is good enough for the radio. I don't mean song writing quality, I mean "fidelity" wise. Does it sound better then a lot of peoples stuff around these boards? Sure. Does it really compete will with big time productions? No, maybe close, but no.

I repeat, my productions ARE NOT that great. They may be very good for the level of gear I am using, but I am far from satisfied with these results. Yes, for the money the client paid for their recordings I feel they got a great DEMO, but big time none of it is.

I wish I seem more posted around here asking HOW then WHAT. The mic section is chalked full of "What should I get, a somethingoranother vs a thingamigig.

I keep saying it. Everybody thinks buying that ONE mic is going to change their sound. How many times does someone post "I got $200 and I need a mic that will produce 'professional' results. What should I get?". Oh boy.....THAT is what I am talking about. If you want professional sound, get professional gear, and I assure you it is going to cost more then $200 per piece.

Ed
 
Damn - can't we all just get along?

Obviously there is just as wide a range of personalities here on this site as there are skill sets.

Well, my two bits is this: I openly proclaim myself a complete, 100% amateur at the Art (and I mean ART as well as a science) of audio recording. If I have any "professional" in me that is from the computer world, not the audio world. I come to this site exactly because this is HOME Recording .com, and my passionate hobby is home recording of my band and my music.

Being an admitted amateur does not mean I am an idiot, nor that I have not accumulated some musical and practical knowledge along the way. Sure I have opinions, and most (I hope) have been based on my openly limited experience. I can learn the science of audio from a book, but I come here to (hopefully) learn some of the “art” from other people. THERE IS NO 100% RIGHT AND WRONG IN ART.

When I read posts from someone like Ed I am learning from someone who has put WAY more time and effort into this field that I probably ever will. I greatly value his opinion, and I hope he and others with similar background will continue to post their ideas, experience, and opinions.

And when I read a post from the amateur newbie who has an NT-1 and a Behringer mixer, I am hearing from someone who is a lot closer to my own situation, and is often facing similar problems, with similar budget restraint, with similar questions. Sometimes their solutions can give me good insight, sometimes not. But everyone starts at class 101.

Despite comments made in this thread, I have seen little evidence that there are many people here at HR who think they will make fantastic, polished sounding recordings with a $500 studio. But there IS such a thing as using what you have to its best potential. Knowledge is the key to doing this, and that is accumulated two ways – teaching yourself or learning from others. Even the guy who can’t afford anything better than an NT-1 (or a Shure SM-57) has things he can learn to make his work sound better. And when he can finally afford that $800 mic, sure he will sound better. But if he didn’t learn his basic lessons before he is still not going to get the best out of his gear.

If I can make one generalization, its that artists tend to be passionate and opinionated. I don’t claim to be an artist, but I HOPE that I try to be respectful of people I disagree with. Most people posting here seem to be doing the same.

In the end all you can do is try your best, no matter what you are doing …. be it recording, or communicating, or learning. I’m still working at all of them, so please keep the ideas coming!
 
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