any ol' mic vs. any ol' mic....what should I get?

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sonusman

sonusman

Banned
This is more a rant. Live with it.

I don't post in this microphone forum too much mainly because it would seem peoples almost "religious" preferences with microphones exceeds peoples "religious" views about religion! :)

Watch how the NT1 faction rationalizes their purchase after I slam the mic.

Watch how the Marshall (insert ANY model here) faction argues their purchase.

Watch how the Audio Technica faction lives and dies behind their purchase.

Watch how RE tells you "The Octava (insert model here) from the Sound Room only....." :)


Anyway.

It is all silly. I have found it amazing that most solid recommendations from those that have used a great variety of mics in professional situations usually recommend a few similar mics. Yeah, those few vary here and there.

I find it amazing that some guy using a NT1 to a Behringer mixer, to a Tascam 4 track cassette, and monitoring through a home stereo system (these are the same guys that end up asking silly monitor recommendation questions in The Rack) will get a lot of support from all the others using a similar setup. Then all will argue that the NT1, or whatever model is "definately" up to par with other slightly more expensive mics. Funny.

Ahhhhhhh, this is a rant, so I can be sort of scattered and don't need to make any hard core points really....;)

I find it funny that people want "professional results" in their recordings, yet skimp really bad in the two areas of recording that make the biggest difference, mics and monitors. It would seem that everyone expects that their should be a under $200 mic and under $200 dollor monitor system that will tell them the truth about their audio.

Kids, kids!!! Time for the education.

I really dug reading John Sayers little quiz about which mic was the SM 58 and which was the AT 4050 on a piano. Yup, I guessed it wrong. Many others who's opinions I respect and who's engineering talent I highly respect got it wrong too. Of course, John's test was far from conclusive that a SM 58 can compete in a piano application with a AT 4050. There are just too many fundamental issues about using mics for any application involved to draw conclusions about those results.

The point here? Buy a damn mic and start learning how to use it!!! I have said it so damn many times that I am sick of saying it, ANY mic can work 'reasonably' well in ANY situation IF you have a good source sound, good monitors to hear it on, and some idea of what actually sounds 'reasonable'.

If recording were as easy as just throwing a mic in front of something and hitting the record button and all would sound good, there would be NO multi million dollar studios in the world where the big boys record.

So, here is sonusmans advice about purchasing a mic.

Plan on spending 50% MORE then what you think your budget is and get out of the damn Chinese produced capsules that are selling in the $100-250 price range and call it good. There are NO "deals" on great mics in those price ranges unless you are picking up a used mic for around that price.

Another thing I am tired of is the quotes of (insert big named engineer here who writes for big named magazine) about the new NADY, or any other happy horseshit mic aimed at the homerecording market, being quoted as this mic being a "best bang for the buck". Hey guys, these damn writers are not paid to knock these mics. The market is way to stiff to have the game work that way. They HAVE to say something good about it! The magazine needs the cash for the companies advertising.

So, those recommendations are out the window now. Where else should we look? Here? Hmmmmmmmm....

One of the problems with taking advice from a BBS aimed at homerecording is that many of the members truely are not getting very good results with their cheap gear, they just don't see the reality of it. Cheap gear in inexperienced hands = bads results. Cheap gear in experienced hands = okay results, and here and there, great results.

But I can assure you of this. If you don't have good tools, you can't build what you want and have it turn out great. If you are building a house, sure, you could do so with a hand saw (manual type), a flathead screw driver, pliers, and a hammer. But think about this, in skilled hands, using only these tools would take a tremendous effort to make the house look great. In unskilled hands, the house will probably fall down during the first wind storm.

Will better tools = better results in inexperienced hands?

I tend to think so. I think superior audio tools tend to be a bit more forgiving when "misused" per se.

Folks, and this aimed mainly at people just starting out in recording, there is NO "great overall mic". This is a reality that is reinforced by the mic list of every major recording studio in the world. You think they have such extensive mic lists because it looks cool? No.....Anybody who has done this for a while knows that variety is crucial for capturing the "right" sound for a production. Hey, if a damn Neumann U 87 isn't working on the voice, there is no justifying using it at all if there is also a U47, C12, 414, 4050, or any of a handfull of great vocal mics available. Is the U 87 the best overall mic on the market? It is revered by many old time engineers and producer who have bio's that read like a who's who's. Does that make it the best overall mic for you? Not by a long shot. That is why the studios these engineers and producers work in have a great variety of mics available, because sometimes the ol' U 87 isn't going to be the right mic for the application, and compromises are not an option.

So, remember this. ANY MIC YOU BUY EXPECTING IT TO "DO IT ALL" FOR YOU IS GOING TO AT SOME POINT BE A MIC THAT IS A COMPROMISE FROM THE SOUND YOU WANT!!!

Remembering that, now think long and hard about what you can actually afford to spend on a mic, and damnit! up that by 50% and start looking around. Don't let a couple hundred dollars keep you from purchasing a higher quality mic then a NT1! Remember, mics and monitors will make the two biggest difference (equipment wise that is) in how your recordings sound. I will throw in the room you are recording in as well because good sounding rooms remove a lot of problems with micing things.

Anyway. I am done. Just had to point out how silly all these this vs. that threads are. Not only has just about every comparison been discussed in this forum to nausea, but the arguements become more cost driver in many cases, and based upon no broader perspective then would be necessary to make some of the recommendations many make.

Peace.

Ed
 
Thanks for the great advice sonusman.

But after all is said and done; a mic is a mic is a mic.
 
my question to whom it may concern.....

If you are looking for "pro results", why are you at "HOME RECORDING".com?...........

"HomeRecording.com TM This is the placeyou've been looking for: the knowledge center for anyone interested in recording and mixing their own music CD's and MP3's in their own home recording studio, or garage, or basement. You might want to do it yourself to save money, have more artistic control, or to learn the music business. If any of this sounds like your dream...like I said, this is the place!"

This is why I came to this site.......
 
Hopefully, this will appear right below your post so I won't hafta quote it. This will be last post in homerecording, so I hope it gets read and understood.

There are a lot of honest reviewers out there who write for magazines but some do tend to emphasis only the positive points of the unit they're reviewing. I know, I was burned when I bought a Tannoy monitor system, based on a review. It was a piece of shit. The reviewer raved about the clear top end (true) and the clean bottom (also true), but neglected to mention the huge honk at 400 Hz that made the thing totally useless for any kind of monitoring.

I normally hang out on rec.audio.pro and maybe I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have. I do now. These forums have really opened my eyes as to how many people view some of us who do this for a full time living.

Ed, you're wrong about some of the "cheap" mics - there are some great values out there that people should know about. But like you, I hate when the people who have only been exposed to one or two good mics get on here and rave about their mic, because they own one. It's one of the reasons I started doing reviews of stuff on r.a.p. - because I DON"T write for a magazine, I DON'T own the stuff I test, and I'm not beholding to anyone to make their stuff look good.

Maybe that's why I have more credibility there than I do here; because people there know me as a studio owner like themselves, who's trying to find some good stuff to add to the value of my studio for not a whole bunch of money. I looked at some of the basic stuff that's shown here and some of it is downright funny as far as the amount of misinformation that is being generated as fact. In many cases, it's like the "blind leading the blind". Some of the stuff that appears here is just plain wrong.

The squabbling that goes on here is pretty much typical of the new age of electronics, but some of it here gets downright vicious, and I realize that me coming from r.a.p., it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Still, there is a certain level of professionalism that keeps us all from going too far on r.a.p. That doesn't happen here. The fact that you don't have a lot of pros here is probably a good thing for many people here. When you trash a pro, they simply stop helping, and the people who could be helped by someone's experience are the ones that suffer.

It seems that a lot of people here are more interested in "being right" than they are in learning more, and that's unfortunate. But that's all your choice.

I guess I'll never get out of the "Newbie" class here, since I'm still shy of my 50 posts. Too bad.
 
Thanks Ed!!!

Thanks for saying what we were all thinking!!!
 
Don't give up on us yet Harvey.

There may be a lot of misinformation here but that will never change unless credible, knowledgeable people such as yourself are willing to cut through the BS.

Personally, I think I'm skeptical enough to spot the instances of the "blind leading the blind," but I think I appreciate more the recommendations/knowledge of the experienced as opposed to their ability to spot the inexperienced.
 
Harvey: Ed was talking about mics, not the dynamics of this board, but since you mentioned it:

"Still, there is a certain level of professionalism that keeps us all from going too far on r.a.p. That doesn't happen here."

My guess is that it's not just the level of professionalism, but the level of confidence that comes of experience, that keeps things calmer on pro boards. When someone *knows* what they're talking about, there's no need to get defensive. This place, by contrast, is full of everyone from newbies and wannabes and wallabies to a handful of pros, and that's why it gets so agitated sometimes. Not only that, but that's the very reason this place needs some informed opinion.

So, if Ed's wrong about what he's saying about cheap mics, just what's he wrong about? :D I like my NT1 for two reasons only - for what I'm doing, it sounds w-a-y better than the SM58 I was using before, and I haven't heard anything better. Not that I've listened to anything better, mind you - just so you get my drift.
 
Dobro, with all due respect to you, Ill answer you, and please understand Im not flaming you....this is where Ed is wrong, dead wrong....

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24860

the guy titles the thread "entry level mics", looking for his "first decent mic" , wants to spend "less than $150" and just wants it to sound "pretty good"....Ed reccommends :

"A pair of AT 4033's, a pair of C1000's, and around 6 or 7 SM 57's, and one ATM 25 will get you very nice results in just about any recording session. "

That, to me, seems like $1000-$1500 worth of mics.....

Thats not right....


Now, let me come to Ed's defense....alot of times these guys come in here saying they got a Behringer board, a few Sm57's, a 3630 and wanna know how they can get their Cd to sound like Tool.....I get a kick outta seeing Ed flame these guys and knocking them back into reality....

Ed, this is nothing against you personally....just a reminder that this is "HomeRecording".com....the guys that wanna sound like Tool deserve it....but guys that just want a "decent sound".....you are well respected here and advice from you is definitely an asset to the BBS....I missed your posts when you were absent the past weeks....Think back to when you were 4-tracking in your bedroom....couldnt you have gotten a lot better sound from a SSL and 2" and a rack of outboard gear?....why didnt you have it?.....

and Dobro, by the way, Im using a SM57 because it sounds waaaayyyyy better than that WalMart mic I had...get my drift.....


Sincerely,

Michael "Gidge" Guidry

King of the cheapskate wannabe wallabees
 
I'm willing to claim I understand you. I'm a home recordist too. I'm just trying to draw Harvey out, because of two things: I think he's angling for an exit, plus it's hard to find pros on boards who'll take each other up on stuff like Ed said. I learn from things like this. It's like when I was a kid and got to stay up late an listen to the adults talk. I already learned something about bass roll-off on mics. I'm holding out for two lessons this week. :D

Anyway, you ever notice how Ed always talks about spending more money on gear, but how he uses relatively cheap gear himself (4033 excepted) and gets good results? It's obviously not the gear that gets the good results... He's a home recordist's inspiration, that guy.
 
With imagination, "any ol' mic" will do pretty much what you want it to do.
 
dobro said:
Harvey: Ed was talking about mics, not the dynamics of this board, but since you mentioned it:

"Still, there is a certain level of professionalism that keeps us all from going too far on r.a.p. That doesn't happen here."

My guess is that it's not just the level of professionalism, but the level of confidence that comes of experience, that keeps things calmer on pro boards. When someone *knows* what they're talking about, there's no need to get defensive. This place, by contrast, is full of everyone from newbies and wannabes and wallabies to a handful of pros, and that's why it gets so agitated sometimes. Not only that, but that's the very reason this place needs some informed opinion.

So, if Ed's wrong about what he's saying about cheap mics, just what's he wrong about? :D I like my NT1 for two reasons only - for what I'm doing, it sounds w-a-y better than the SM58 I was using before, and I haven't heard anything better. Not that I've listened to anything better, mind you - just so you get my drift.
Click to expand...
Well, Ed said:
So, here is sonusmans advice about purchasing a mic.

Plan on spending 50% MORE then what you think your budget is and get out of the damn Chinese produced capsules that are selling in the $100-250 price range and call it good. There are NO "deals" on great mics in those price ranges unless you are picking up a used mic for around that price.
Click to expand...
That was my thinking too, about a year ago, but after blasting the Chinese for generaly poor quality control, especially on the Rode mics, I realized that I hadn't heard the Marshall mics, which people were saying WERE consistant from unit to unit.

I knew that the Chinese are capable of making good capsules (since Manley uses one in their high end Langevin mic), so I contacted Marshall at AES last year and asked if I could test their mics, with the stipulation that whatever I found, I would post in r.a.p., with no conditions attached. They agreed to it.

After I received them, I requested a few more samples, just to check the off the shelf consistency. They were very consistent.

There were a couple of models that I didn't like at all, some that were pretty good, and two models that were amazing, especially for the price; as good as some of the best mics I've ever heard. I reported all that in r.a.p. Since then, many other pros have purchased the mics I recommended and they've all agreed that the two I singled out are "amazing values", both of which were under $200 street price, with cable, and shock mount.

So, why do people at r.a.p. listen to me? Well, I'm a studio owner, just like most of the people there. I've been in the music business for 48 years; I've heard and used C12s and U-47s (when they were brand new); I've designed mics; and I'm out of the music mainstream, so I don't care who I piss off, and I don't do reviews for a living.

Two of the most important factors in any professional studio (after actual performance) are "reliability" and "consistency". If I can't depend on it, I don't want it in here. "Usefullness" is the last criteria - is it worth it's keep? In the case of the AKG C3000, and the C1000, the answer for me is "No". They were reliable and consistent, but the performance and usefulness were sub-par for my needs, and it seems, a lot of other pros agree with me. There are "better" mics for the same or less, out there.

But it was Ed's statement about "no low priced Chinese mics are any good" that I took exception to. It's not a big deal, but when people make broad statements like that, I'd at least like to know what they're basing it on. Are they blasting in general, or have they taken the time to first listen to the stuff they're blasting?

Yeah, I just made a sweeping statement about the C3000, but that was after owning one for two years (and buying it when the retail was $849). But I hafta even qualify that, by saying that in two years, I DID find two times when it was the best mic for the job. But two times was not useful enough for me to justify keeping it.

I like Ed; I like you; I like C7sus, and Dobro, and Weston; hell, I really like a lot of the people I've met here. But all the sweeping remarks, over-simplified generalizations, and bitterness I've seen here so far does not make this a place that I wanna hang out at on a regular basis. i'll lurk for a while longer (and try to answer anybody that emails me with a question), but I sure as hell ain't gonna be posting to the BBS and get pulled into sensless arguments over what amounts to "throw-away-toys" kind of equipment for a professional studio.

Just my $0.02.

Harvey Gerst
ITR Studio
www.ITRstudio.com

(I can't believe I'm letting myself get sucked into this again.)
 
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A bit off topic but as to the Chineese quality.....

A major leading engineer and the editor of our leading Audio mag from my country told me about a month ago that for the past 5 years , the same chineese factory has been making most of the monitors and stereos in the world.

He told me that they double box them with a made in china outside and a box inside that saya made in U.S.A.
He told me he has seen photos from a tour as proof.
 
Harvey, I'm glad to hear that you have decided to hang around for a while longer, it's the info from Pros like you that make this a worthwhile place to visit.
Dont let the crap from that one thread sour you on the whole place, if you look around you will see that was one of the most contentious threads in a long time, they aren't all like that.
You are perfectly right, there are a few guys that seem to be more interested in being perceived as being right, than they are in hearing the facts, ignore them they are by far the minority, if they wanna get into dick measuring contests don't stoop to their level, anyway you already showed us the size of your Mic Cabinet, way bigger than theirs, guaranteed. ;)

It may seem that your comments were unappreciated, but that is simply because a lot of the people here are like me, when somebody who obviously knows what they are talking about starts talking you shut up and listen, that way you might actually learn something and you won't end up having your size 10 Nikes for dinner.

Thanks for all the info (so far, hope there is more to come).
 
Yeah.
They make mics in the same factory they make shoes in. They make three cents an hour. When they double box them they only make one cent an hour. Then they cut off their own feet because they can't afford to buy the NIKE's they make in their own factory.

Peace, love and happiness to all.

hixmix
 
Hi,
At times I find there are many "what" questions but not enough 'why questions". Perhaps if we asked why more often more professionals would hang out. As for bitterness, well a rant is a rant. I think the credo of this board is that its NOT professional. This is more like when you walk into a sleazy dive bar and theres years worth of grime on the wall and the glasses are dirty, but the liquor is quite good and cheap.

Were all a bunch of old drunks at the bar arguing about inane specs like idiots. Dont let it get to ta. Most of us have a limited real world connection to our internet persona so its almost like a silly game. Its like cheap entertainment.
 
hey Ed i just orderd the AT4060 i got it for $999 im just waiting for MR UPS to bring it to me anyways there were a bunch of different choices for that price and im ordering throu the mail so i havent tried any of the mics out do you think theres a better choice for the money
 
Wow, when i stapled full length curtains to the wall of the spare bedroom in my little mobile home in rural Mississippi while my neighbors huntin' dogs howled and set up a mike in there, you mean i was supposed to get professional results? I thought it was just a hobby. Man! I need to read these boards some more.
 
trucker dave-

the less ya read these boards, the better
 
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