Any noise reduction mods for the Teac 80-8?

L

LToro

New member
Hola,

Once again I apologize for my English skill set. Ok so I have a recently serviced Teac 80-8 everything sounds fantastic however the noise floor is somewhat hight; even if I hit the tape hard you can still hear some hiss. The type of music is Latin soul nothing loud that could help mask the hiss.
I usually dump the tracks in my computer to further manipulate sound (noisy reduction plug ins by izotope do the job) But I question If there is a mod out there to reduce the noise floor of the machine. Thanks in advance

LToro.
 
Are the capacitors original, or have they been replaced? If they're more than 20 years old, recapping the machine is likely to help as the electrolytics do decay over time and that can result in increased noise from the electronics.

You might also be able to align the machine for a higher recording level, but I don't know how high the 80-8 can go without modifying the amplifier cards, and doing this would increase cross-talk between channels. Crosstalk isn't necessarily a problem unless you have something like timecode data or a click track or something else which you never, ever want to have bleeding into the final mix.

Aside from that, there are DBX noise-reduction modules out there. The DX8 would be ideal if you can find a working one because it's designed for your deck. However, you can take a pair of DX4Ds (for the TASCAM 34, 38 etc) and modify them so they will work with the 80-8 as well. However, I've heard that external DBX modules aren't as good as the TSR-8 and similar which have the DBX fully integrated with them. That means replacing the deck, though.
 
8 tracks on 1/2" tape is much more noisy than a modern DAW, even if the tape machine is working as new.

DBX reduces the noise greatly but was never designed for hitting the tape hard.

Dolby SR and other Dolby types do allow you to hit the tape hard.

But it might be better using a different approach. Applying the same effect to all tracks is not advisable because it tends to make everything in the mix sound the same. We dont do that with effects like reverb, EQ, chorus effect, so why with tape distortion?

Better to only apply "tape effect", to certain selected tracks, just as you only apply certain effects like reverb to certain tracks. That way you will not need a large number of analog tape tracks. You can track direct to the DAW, only coming out of the DAW for certain "tape effects" on a few selected tracks. Use the 3 head feature of the Tascam to go straight back into the DAW. After this is completed you will have to slide the new track about 0.5 or 1 second to the left of your screen to restore synchronisation.

Another advantage of this approach is that you are only adding tape noise on one or two tracks instead of all tracks. So you will have much less tape noise in the final mix. You may not need to use any noise reduction at all.

Using a noise reduction plugin, in the way you described is a terrible shame. Noise reduction plugins are a last ditch emergency attempt to try and reduce noise in a track which cannot be re recorded. Their results are nearly always poor.

Much much better to make a good, clean original recording in the first place.

Tim
 
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Hello fellas,
Thanks for the suggestions. @JP all the caps originals as far as I can tell, but I can try to check and see if any need a good recap. I am trying to stay from the build DBX noise reduction. I believe the plug ins algorithm do a fantastic job at reducing the noise with little to no artifacts. But I am still curious if there is any known mod to reduce the Teac 80-8 noise floor. The machine is align for 456 tape at +6 I believe this is high enough.
 
@Tim
Hey I know what you mean, but sometimes I like to use the tape machine as the main and only recorder not a tape efx.. Different work flow and one I do enjoy for some weird reason.
 
LToro said:
Hello fellas,
Thanks for the suggestions. @JP all the caps originals as far as I can tell, but I can try to check and see if any need a good recap. I am trying to stay from the build DBX noise reduction. I believe the plug ins algorithm do a fantastic job at reducing the noise with little to no artifacts. But I am still curious if there is any known mod to reduce the Teac 80-8 noise floor. The machine is align for 456 tape at +6 I believe this is high enough.
Click to expand...

If your Isotope NR is so good at reducing the tape noise, and with little to no artifacts - a big claim which I frankly do not believe - why are you asking about NR mods to the tape machine?

Tim
 
Tim Gillett said:
If your Isotope NR is so good at reducing the tape noise, and with little to no artifacts - a big claim which I frankly do not believe - why are you asking about NR mods to the tape machine?

Tim
Click to expand...
why does he need a reason besides "being curious"?
 
@Tim hey I think the sound quality might improve if I can reduce the noise floor of the machine all together no? Also I like the idea of staying analog and not going back to the DAW. I think reason enough for me. So do you know of any mod Tim?
Salud!
 
I've been happy with a Tascam 38 with the DX-4D dbx units. If you can't find hte DX-8 find a pair of these and check back on how to do the stand alone modification. The modification is very simple. You will spend more time removing the screws on the bottom plate, than you will making the modification.
 
Not that it may be an option for you...but you might just consider moving to a different machine or format...?
Maybe something that is a bit "newer" than the TEAC 80-8 or something that is altogether a more pro-grade deck.

There's a few options out there if you need/want to stay 1/2" 8-track...and certainly even more options if you consider other formats.
I don't think you are going to be able to improve on the design of the 80-8 machine enough to lose a significant amount of hiss/noise.
Maybe you could do new caps and whatnot, but that deck even brand new probably has a specific S/N that you will not be able to overcome.

My 1/2" Fostex G16 is pretty usable without it's Dolby on...but it still has some hiss.
I never used it without the Dolby NR.
Now with my 2" Otari MX80...when I got it, I was apprehensive about not having any NR (not counting the built in HX Pro which is crap and turned off)...but people said it's a good deck and fine for Rock/Pop stuff without N/R. Even at 15 ips I'm quite happy how quiet it is...it's as quiet as my Fostex is with Dolby.

Anyway...if you have a DAW based solution for removing the noise, roll with that if you are happy with it, but you may just end up chasing ghosts in trying to upgrade the 80-8 enough to improve on the design's S/N for use without any NR....though by all means give it your best shot if it's something you might enjoy doing.

Another thing you could try, though not sure how well it will work on that machine...is to track with highs boosted (aka pre-emphasis), then on mixdown, cut back an equal amount. Find the frequency area that will mask the hiss/noise the best, and see if it works. I know some people do that when avoiding N/R or not having N/R.
Here's some info on it and on NR formats:

Tape Noise Reduction
 
Hola,

Yes, stick with the analog machine for tracking. There is no good reason not to. It is not being used for effect, but as a recording medium. (Tim G es loco y confundido) ;)

A standard mod for the 80-8 is to replace the noisy and marginal 4558 op-amps with NE5532A. You don't have to do anything but drop them in and then fine tune the machine for levels. No other components are needed. The op-amp mod will do more than reduce the noise. It improves the sound quite a lot on the 80-8. There is quite a bit to be done for the 80-8. Replacing old capacitors as JP mentioned is important. Replacing some carbon resistors with metal film type resistors in the signal path reduces noise even further. This is a lot of downtime and work, but it is worth the time if you are set on keeping the 80-8.

Later 1/2" 8-track models like the Tascam 38 and 48 are much quieter than the 80-8 without noise reduction and the last model to be made, the TSR-8, was even quieter than the 38 without the noise reduction. Models from other companies such as the MX5050/8 from Otari and the C278 from Revox are also usably quiet for the 1/2" 8-track format. But all can benefit from noise reduction and noise reduction units are not hard to find. 1/2" 8-track with dbx noise reduction has better noise specifications than a modern DAW, but they are all so quiet a few dB of noise one way or the other does not matter. The bottom line is that either way, people can't hear the background noise.

The kind of tape you use will also make a difference. 456 is good, but you can try some AGFA PEM468 or BASF/EMTEC SM468 for a bit less tape hiss. RMGI makes new SM468, but I would look for the older tapes first if you can. The older EMTEC/BASF SM911 also seems to have a better signal-to-noise ratio than RMGI SM911.

The op-amp mod makes the most difference, but can only do so much for the 80-8. If you want to replace the op-amps look for the 5532AN or 5532AP. Anything with an "A" at the end is higher quality and tested to meet best specs. Here is the Texas Instruments NE5532 you want form Digi-Key:

NE5532AP Texas Instruments | 296-7040-5-ND | DigiKey

Personally I like to do the noise reduction while in analog. Beside the Teac DX-8 that was made for the 80-8 you can also keep an eye out for the DBX brand 150X. You will need four of them. IMO the 150X is the best outboard aftermarket dbx unit around. It doesn't need any of the switching like the Tascam units because it encodes and decodes two channels at the same time. $50.00 is on the high side for a 150X. There are some on eBay for stupid high cost, but avoid those. The sellers are loco y confundido. :)

Other analog noise reduction options are below.

Rocktron 180A: 8-channel and similar to dbx. I have the 120A 2-ch and it is at least as good if not better than the dbx Type I units. Here's one on ebay. I don't know the seller and he only has one feedback, but the price is right and you have eBay buyer protection if something goes wrong. I'm trying to fight my gear hog instincts and keep myself from buying it. I don't need it because I have a TSR-8. $150.00 is most I would pay for one if I needed one.

Rocktron Noise Reduction 180a | eBay

Behringer SNR208: Don't let the name scare you. This is older vintage Behringer made in Germany. It is single-ended NR, which means you don't have to encode and decode the tape like dbx and Dolby. I also have the 2-channel version of this, the SNR202, and it is excellent with a very good reputation in music and audio for video recording. It is basically a smart gate that lowers the high frequencies where the tape hiss is, when those frequencies are not present in the music. $100.00 - $150.00 is in the high price range for these. You can find them for less.

Dolby SR is way too expensive four 8 channels. Outboard Dolby C units are hard to find because not many were made. Fostex made the model 3040 Dolby C 4-channel unit. You would need two of them and have special cables made to interface with the 80-8 for switching. Other Dolby C units are 2-channel and will be costly and hard to find four of the same model. You might run across 8-channels of Dolby A but they are all +4 balanced line level, so you'll need line adapters. Dolby B would even help, but you'll need four 2-channel units like the Teac AN-80. The electronics are limiting in the AN-80 for professional use.

Look for any of the models on eBay, Craigslist.com and musicgoround.com.

Bendiciones
 
Beck said:
A standard mod for the 80-8 is to replace the noisy and marginal 4558 op-amps with NE5532A. You don't have to do anything but drop them in and then fine tune the machine for levels. No other components are needed. The op-amp mod will do more than reduce the noise. It improves the sound quite a lot on the 80-8. There is quite a bit to be done for the 80-8. Replacing old capacitors as JP mentioned is important. Replacing some carbon resistors with metal film type resistors in the signal path reduces noise even further. This is a lot of downtime and work, but it is worth the time if you are set on keeping the 80-8.
Click to expand...


OK then....there you go. I guess those are things one CAN do on the 80-8.

My perspective stems from the "this is a lot of downtime and work".... :D
......and also from seeing a lot of gear on eBay that has been modded to "absolute perfection and a dramatic improvement over the original design"....
...yet people then turn around and sell it after they are finished modding it...??? :)

I'm not doubting you that those mods will help the 80-8...just making a comment in general.
Like the one guy on the net who spent a ridiculous amount of time/money upgrading his TASCAM M-3500, and felt that he finally found his audio nirvana in then end....but then admitted he wouldn't do it all again, and that what he had left was a white elephant that no one wanted (and apparently he didn't either).

I would always weigh out the effort/cost of mods VS getting something different, but for people who truly enjoy doing that kind of stuff, then it's a different perspective. Sometimes I do...and sometimes I don't.
 
jpmorris said:
Have you considered noise gating?
Click to expand...

I dont mean to insult but noise gating on every track of a brand new recording is the completely wrong way to go about it. If noise gating was a good way to go, why did the recording industry use the much more complex and expensive double ended noise reduction systems like DBX and Dolby?

The risk with single ended gating, whether analog or digital, is ending up with recordings that sound like a low bitrate mp3.

He's already using a DAW noise reducer and asking about reducing the noise at the tape machine stage.

Tim
 
Blue Jinn, Miroslav, thanks so much. Beck I am speechless man thank you sooo much. This is exactly the info I was looking for. I am very happy with the quality of recordings I am getting out of the 80-8 but reducing the noise at source seems like a good idea. Replacing the op-amp seems like a no brainier, simple and reversible! Bendiciones indeed !! ( Tim G esta muy confudido jeje ;) )
I am going to read and re-read this info until it sinks in me. From tape formula to hardware noise reduction. Gosh this place rocks!!
Once again sorry about my English. Long live Analog!!!
LToro
Ps: My 80-8 is running smooth I am not replacing her, no way!
 
miroslav said:
OK then....there you go. I guess those are things one CAN do on the 80-8.

My perspective stems from the "this is a lot of downtime and work".... :D
......and also from seeing a lot of gear on eBay that has been modded to "absolute perfection and a dramatic improvement over the original design"....
...yet people then turn around and sell it after they are finished modding it...??? :)

I'm not doubting you that those mods will help the 80-8...just making a comment in general.
Like the one guy on the net who spent a ridiculous amount of time/money upgrading his TASCAM M-3500, and felt that he finally found his audio nirvana in then end....but then admitted he wouldn't do it all again, and that what he had left was a white elephant that no one wanted (and apparently he didn't either).

I would always weigh out the effort/cost of mods VS getting something different, but for people who truly enjoy doing that kind of stuff, then it's a different perspective. Sometimes I do...and sometimes I don't.
Click to expand...


I agree. A whole lot of work and for how much benefit?

Bottom line is narrow analog tracks are very noisy. Even with the quieter chips you would struggle to get a clean 60 -65db S/N out of the 80-8. By comparison, the DAW he is dumping the tracks into probably has 100db S/N, and with no NR. The figures just dont add up.

If he's happy with the noise that would be one thing. But he obviously isnt.

Tim
 
Beck said:
Hola,

Yes, stick with the analog machine for tracking. There is no good reason not to. It is not being used for effect, but as a recording medium. (Tim G es loco y confundido) ;)
Click to expand...

Beck you know very well the overwhelming majority of recordists today, from the experienced to the very inexperienced, do not use analog tape for tracking. If they use analog tape at all it is for " audio effect".

It seems almost the entire audio recording world " es loco y confundido ".

Long live millions of idiots out there.

Tim G
 
@Tim I am very happy with the quality of recordings I am getting out of my Teac 80-8 but a little improvement goes a long way.
For some weird reason I turn out better quality recordings when I track to analog tape. What should I do?
 
Tim Gillett said:
I dont mean to insult but noise gating on every track of a brand new recording is the completely wrong way to go about it. If noise gating was a good way to go, why did the recording industry use the much more complex and expensive double ended noise reduction systems like DBX and Dolby?

The risk with single ended gating, whether analog or digital, is ending up with recordings that sound like a low bitrate mp3.
Click to expand...

And you came to this conclusion how exactly? :facepalm:

And we all know about tape hiss and how to tame it. Noise gates have been used in professional environments for decades. The newer smart gates that came out after dbx and Dolby are super!

You should rephrase your reply to something like the following, Tim.

"What's a noise gate and how do you use them?"
 
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