jpmorris
Tape Wolf
Depends entirely on the VCR.
If it's a professional Betacam machine you might not be able to at all, aside from any calibration trimmers on the back etc.
If it's a professional Betacam machine you might not be able to at all, aside from any calibration trimmers on the back etc.
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mwhouston
New member
I'm live in Australia and are recording Saturday night (tomorrow is Friday) so I have little time to get it together. I do have a CRO. The mic will be on the Yamaha Concert baby Grand. How do I get levels right?
Not looking good. I want to try this. Any clues??
Not looking good. I want to try this. Any clues??
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Lance Lawson
New member
I've been doing side by side acoustic guitar/vocal comparasons between my TEAC reel to reel, hi fi Sony VCR and M-Audio sound card with SONAR on my PC. I'm micing with a pair of Rode NT3 mics (haven't set up my expensive LDC yet) and recording tracks going into the three devices at the same time. I've been listening to all the playbacks through a Technics SU-7300. All of it sounds good but the TEAC reel to reel even using old BASF tape sounds the best followed by the VCR followed by the 96/24 digital. The major flaw in the VCR is noise as its amps are not the quietest in the world. However tape hiss is minimal.
I've been strictly digital for nearly 10 years now and have pretty much gotten used to the sound. So when I began to do analog recordings using the same equipment I use for digital recording the differences became very apparent. I suppose if I were to describe my findings they would support the classic arguments of analog vs digital. Analog having richer lows and sweeter highs and digital being quiter yet stiff. Without a doubt though there is more detail on the analog material I've tested.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I'm just ideologically bugged by the whole concept of the audio being parsed out over the width of the tape by the helical scan process. Am I off-base on how that works? Neat-o but not technically linear, and yes IIRC often times there is either companding circuitry or level limiting circuitry in the path (to protect the video tracks I suppose) which is often not too graceful. BUT...VHS tape is relatively cheap, and so are Hi-Fi VCR's...garage sales for pennies on the dollar so it is a great option for the tight-budget operator and/or to experiment. If it sounds good then what the hey...
Interesting but somewhat off-topic thread here...IIRC (I haven't read back through the whole thing) there was discussion about the audio path in VCR's.
Interesting but somewhat off-topic thread here...IIRC (I haven't read back through the whole thing) there was discussion about the audio path in VCR's.
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mwhouston
New member
You have me interested now how to do it?
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
You are going to have to be more specific...not just "how do I do it?"
What are you plugging the mics into?
What are you plugging the mics into?
witzendoz
Senior Member
Hi,
To get the levels right you would need to use a -10 dB output from the console, then run the metering just clipping the red +1, this should give you about the right levels.
I would think that the VCR would have an internal circuit that would limit the volume if a really hot signal was present, the trick is not to get this happening.
Set it up at home and try 15 second level changes running up to a hot signal, then play back and have a listen, noting where the quality drops off.
Cheers
Alan.
To get the levels right you would need to use a -10 dB output from the console, then run the metering just clipping the red +1, this should give you about the right levels.
I would think that the VCR would have an internal circuit that would limit the volume if a really hot signal was present, the trick is not to get this happening.
Set it up at home and try 15 second level changes running up to a hot signal, then play back and have a listen, noting where the quality drops off.
Cheers
Alan.
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Tim Gillett
Banned
VHS HiFi was a million miles from a true analog tape recording. It didnt add analog tape compression or tape harmonics. It was so inherently noisy that sophisticated compander noise reduction was mandatory.
Sure, people used it back in the 80's and 90's but they were also using ADAT digital tape based machines mainly because tape was still a more mature carrier than hard disk drives at that time. Read what Dr Ray Dolby said about how the advances in hard drives caught even his analog recording based company by surprise.
If you want analog tape distortion you need more than just a "non digital" machine that uses "tape". VHS HiFi isnt either true digital accuracy or true analog tape warmth.
Compared to what you have, why track to VHS HiFi? What are you trying to achieve?
Cheers Tim
Sure, people used it back in the 80's and 90's but they were also using ADAT digital tape based machines mainly because tape was still a more mature carrier than hard disk drives at that time. Read what Dr Ray Dolby said about how the advances in hard drives caught even his analog recording based company by surprise.
If you want analog tape distortion you need more than just a "non digital" machine that uses "tape". VHS HiFi isnt either true digital accuracy or true analog tape warmth.
Compared to what you have, why track to VHS HiFi? What are you trying to achieve?
Cheers Tim
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mwhouston
New member
Who can argue with the good doctor?
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Lance Lawson
New member
VHS analog sound cannot be exactly the same as reel to reel sound or cassette sound for that matter either. If for no other reason that the tape transport and head configurations are entirely different. However this is not to say that the signal recorded onto a hi fi VCR is by virtue of these differences inferior to digital. IMO its not, not by a long shot. If the signal recorded is a continious wave signal and gets played back as a continous wave signal then it is going to behave to the ear as a continous wave signal as does traditional tape formates and vinyl do.
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Tim Gillett
Banned
This is a paid job for this guy.
If it was you in that position, would you go out there today and record such a live classical recital onto a VHS HiFi machine?
I have a hunch you would stick with what you have been using solely for the past 10 years and I wouldnt blame you.
Cheers Tim
If it was you in that position, would you go out there today and record such a live classical recital onto a VHS HiFi machine?
I have a hunch you would stick with what you have been using solely for the past 10 years and I wouldnt blame you.
Cheers Tim
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mwhouston
New member
Though both digital I'm doing two recordings at once. One with the Behringer T-47s, MIC100 valve reamps, and 202 24bit A2D ro laptop using Gold Wave etc,. the other with a Sony Stereo mic (batteries) "sitting" on the piano facing into the noisy beast. There is then a Elliot low noise two transistor preamp (batteries) and my Cowon IAudio6. The Cowon has a line in at 128kbps. A lot of dynamics.
So one recording from two meters back and one right on the piano.
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Tim Gillett
Banned
OK, that's helpful extra info. I suspect your first setup is fine for the purpose, considering your budget. More important might be mic placement re the choir.
Learn about mic placement in the mics section of this BBS and in recording techniques. if you're really serious the Shure website has lots of helpful info on mics and mic techniques.
You other setup sounds modest to say the least but OTOH a separate miced track of the piano, no matter how modest will be better than nothing as you can later balance out choir and piano. Again, mic placement is really important, especially with the piano which is notoriously hard to mic as the sound comes from such a wide area and it can be hard to know where best to place the mic(s).
The little Cowon recorder is probably a weak link, especially recording at low bitrates but then the Sony mic may not be too flash either. Nothing wrong with mics or pre's that run on batteries though.
Ideally you would have a recorder that had enough tracks to record the choir in stereo,(2) the piano in stereo (2) and the audience applause/ambience in stereo (2) as well, a total of 6 tracks. Then all your mics and pre's would ideally be of similar quality too.
But it's amazing what you can do with modest gear so long as you use it right. Making a good live recording isnt just about having big ticket gear. At least half is knowing how to use it, and paying attention to detail.
A whole recording can be ruined by using a top quality mic but without adding a $2 pop filter for close vocals, or forgetting to isolate the mic from vibrations coming from the wooden flooring. Or forgetting to attend a rehearsal so you know where the loudest peaks are in the musical performance. Especially important in more classically oriented performances with big dynamic changes.
It makes a difference whether you are being paid or not, or whether you want to make a career out of it. I recorded a band I gigged with the other weekend, and it was just for us. One little mic, into one cheap little recorder. All set up in about 30 seconds flat. Nothing flash, but at least there is a record of it. But I would take a lot more pains if I was being paid serious money to record the same gig.
All the best, Tim
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Lance Lawson
New member
If I was committed to getting an analog recording I would haul out my reel to reel machine before I used a hifi VHS. However I believe there is a digital recording already committed so anything analog is IMO more of an exercise to test the concept of making serious analog recordings. In all honesty I wouldn't record with what I've been using for the past 10 years since it represents the industry standard and at this point in time I'm not enamored with the industry standard.
Now I could use my MR8 to record the live classical concert and it would deliver a very nice CD quality rendition of the concert which would be on par with a thousand other CD quality recording devices. No better no worse. If the final for distrbuition version is going to be on CD then 90% of the audio pampering in terms of high sample rates and analog augmentation is going to fly out the window and essentially what will end up on CD 44/16 is going to be what would have been there if the concert was soley recorded on 44/16.
However the idea of making a dual recording digital and analog has merit. But the fullest potential of that merit is to create a digital recording and keeping it fully in the digital domain while taking the analog reocrding and keep it fully in the analog domain. Analog recordings only make sense if they're kept analog. Its curious that you can take a digital recording and record it analog and you have a somewhat genuine analog recording, a kind of not too distant cousin to full analog. But once you make a digital recording of an analog recording it becomes 100% digital and as often as not is the worse for it too.
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mwhouston
New member
A little misunderstanding: In my last entry I was reffering to the pianist only and no choir this time. I have been working with the pianits for the last few weeks. We have a whole auditorium to ourselves and a very good Yamaha baby grand.
Using the valve mics and valve preamps I am recording from two meters away from the center of the piano out on a tangent. The mics are 6 feet off the ground and 2 feet apart. I do notice on playback I'm not getting hard central images. The stereo image is good though with low to high piano runs going from the left to the right speaker. Huge dynamics and a lot of energy.
The two recordings (another one tonight) I have cut to DVD-A 96/24. Crisp sounding. The only processing is to bring the volume mach to -16db on all six tracks.
Using the valve mics and valve preamps I am recording from two meters away from the center of the piano out on a tangent. The mics are 6 feet off the ground and 2 feet apart. I do notice on playback I'm not getting hard central images. The stereo image is good though with low to high piano runs going from the left to the right speaker. Huge dynamics and a lot of energy.
The two recordings (another one tonight) I have cut to DVD-A 96/24. Crisp sounding. The only processing is to bring the volume mach to -16db on all six tracks.
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Tim Gillett
Banned
I've done very little piano recording but know enough to know it's regarded as one of the most difficult instruments to record! Just a quick Google using the words "piano recording microphone " came up with a host of good articles. Why not start with that?
Cheers Tim
Cheers Tim
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Tim Gillett
Banned
Lance, this idea of "keeping it in the analog domain" is a falsehood. The test of a recorder is how well it can replicate what it records. Period.
We all agree that the electrical signal such as from a microphone is what we want to preserve. Yes, that electrical signal is an analog of the sound pressure that hit its diaphragm.
But to then extend that and say that the best means of recording that electrical signal must also be an analog of that original analog is to give to two different "analogs" the same meaning. They are not the same.
Though it sounds counterintuitive, mapping that electrical signal precisely and then back to an electrical signal distorts the signal less than does analog means or recording it. (of course there are many analog recorders that do a better job than many digital recorders but we are talking about the highest fidelity here)
Analog recording is really an analog of an analog, and that's where the problem lies. It is that second analog of the first that is problematic and always was. They are not "in the same domain" except in our minds.
Something to think about.
Cheers Tim
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mwhouston
New member
Assuming these recorders are in the same and good condition which is the pick of the pick: AKAI GX4000D, TEAC A3300S,
Tascam 38-8 Multitrack Recorder - 1/2" 8 Track . They are both very cheap and come with manuals.
I only want it for single take, two channel?
Thanks in advance.
Tascam 38-8 Multitrack Recorder - 1/2" 8 Track . They are both very cheap and come with manuals.
I only want it for single take, two channel?
Thanks in advance.
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Tim Gillett
Banned
Well, no one seems interested in answering your question and interesting to wonder why. For what it's worth I'd suggest there wont be much audible difference between the AKAI and TEAC so long as both are working well.
In the right hands, even the Akai and Teac models you mentioned could do a very creditable job of recording either your choir or the grand piano. They would definitely need the assistance of some sort of compander noise reduction, probably dbx or Dolby SR, to handle the dynamics involved but with that assistance, yes they could do fine.
But, as most knowledgeable people would ask, why bother? There is far better technology to record audio these days. You're using it right now.
Cheers Tim
In the right hands, even the Akai and Teac models you mentioned could do a very creditable job of recording either your choir or the grand piano. They would definitely need the assistance of some sort of compander noise reduction, probably dbx or Dolby SR, to handle the dynamics involved but with that assistance, yes they could do fine.
But, as most knowledgeable people would ask, why bother? There is far better technology to record audio these days. You're using it right now.
Cheers Tim
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dodgeaspen
New member
Best advice I can give you is do what the guys on the forum say. They have a lot of knowledge and know what they are talking about. Good luck and welcome.