Analog VS. Digital

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boomtap said:
Aside from tracking then transfering to digital, I really don't think that Analog will work for todays style of music. Old recordings were about performance and captured the way that the band actually sounds. Today, everbody tweaks the crud out of every mix in ways that would be impossible using analog tape. When they used to record the goal was to make every track sound exactly like our ears hear the sound in the room that it is being recorded. Most of the music today is very artifical and synthetic in tone and atmoshpere. I just don't think people would be happy with the results from analog even if it does sound better.


i think youre right in the extent that POULAR music now days relies on digital editing and digital post-FX... but i think there will always be a place for recordings the "capture the way the band actually sounds" at least i hope so...

on the other hand, there are some great sounding classic recordings on analog that would be near impossible to reproduce on digital equiptment.

imagine if Abbey Road were recorded on a DAW?
 
Tunes68 said:
I was just wondering, if analog tape recording is so good, why are all these analog studios closing their doors?



Cost, pure and simple.

As far as why great analog costs so much, it is simple. The quality of the components needs to be much higher for analog. For just one example, take summing busses. Digital summing is a simple matter of math (math which, I am afraid, they have not yet gotten right), where as with analog summing, it is all about how much voltage the summing amp can handle. It doesn't cost all that much to have a CPU do some math, but a summing amp that can handle 24-48 channels of +4 dBu audio is a very complex and expensive piece of gear. As another example, when you are dealing with just a few channels of analog audio, the muddiness and brittle high end distortion of the lower quality analog gear that is used by most home recordists is not a problem. However, when you have a whole shit load of channels, that muddiness and distortion becomes a big problem. Now, with digital, this is not an issue. The path is always clean, always clear. In order to get clean analog, you need to spend the money to get extremely high quality components. But when you get it right, it is SOOOOOOO nice.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
There is a world of difference between a Studer A824 with 2" tape at 30 ips and a Tascam running 1" at 15ips. The Studer makes life unbelievably easy. The Tascam makes life all but impossible.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here, a Tascam MSR24S sounds very good and a Fostex G24 (1" Dolby S) sounds better than some of the 2" machines.

The Fostex is electronically superior to many 2" machines.

I have soundclips on my website, some are recorded with an Otari 2" machine, some with a Tascam MSR 1" machine, you tell me which are from the Tascam, since there is a world of difference. :D
 
Okay, so this means that since good analog equipment is no longer available to the average consumer, we are doomed to deal with digital sound from now on, and that it will never be able to sound as good as the high end analog equipment that studios used to use? High end studio equipment is one thing, but how about the digital home recording equipment that is available to the average home recording enthusiast, like me? I own and use a Fostex VF160 16 track hard disc recorder. So what you guys are saying is that my VF160 will never be able to touch the quality of recording that say a Tascam 24 track analog reel to reel can? Not even by tweaking the sound of it on a computer?
If so, that's pretty sad, and it doesn't say much for how far our recording technology has come since the '60s and '70s. I realize that magnetic recording tape is a different format of recording than digital, but I didn't realize the difference was that much. As I said earlier, to my ears, my recordings on my VF160 sound superb, but I guess I'll have to hear some old analog recordings from the '70s and my own recordings to see how much of a difference there is.

Tunes68.
 
Tunes, I do have recorded with the VF and I do have an Otari 2" machine, I also have a Tascam MSR24S machine and I even have an old Fostex B16 1/2" 16 track machine.

Besides these machines I have a Studer B67 1/4" master recorder, a Philips Pro50 all tube 1/4" master recorder (from the fifties) and a Telefunken M10 1/4" machine with Neumann electronics.

I do know how hi end analog sounds, even the B67 swallows the 32 bit 96khz format and sorry for you, but the VF isn't even a match for the old B16.

At musicplayer.com Bruce Swedien (recorded with Michael Jackson a record that sold 60.000.000 copies) recently started a discussion like this one.

Here's what Bruce says: Here's what my ears say..... i'm doing a great project right now with a very young, highly talented Pop-Rock band. The drummer is 21 years old(I bought my socks 25 years ago!) and plays his butt off. And we have a young lady vocaiist/composer/lyricist who is 22 and is so good she will make you cry!!!

I miss my Studer A827 so bad right now!!!

Bruce Swedien


http://www.musicplayer.com//ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/1/t/023785.html

Have a nice day!
 
boomtap said:
Aside from tracking then transfering to digital, I really don't think that Analog will work for todays style of music. Old recordings were about performance and captured the way that the band actually sounds. Today, everbody tweaks the crud out of every mix in ways that would be impossible using analog tape. When they used to record the goal was to make every track sound exactly like our ears hear the sound in the room that it is being recorded. Most of the music today is very artifical and synthetic in tone and atmoshpere. I just don't think people would be happy with the results from analog even if it does sound better.
Not to sidetrack this thread, but it seems that the biggest reason that analog won't work for a lot of today's music (think autotune princesses) is that the talent isn't there to begin with. It seems to be all about the image...
 
Han said:
I do know how hi end analog sounds, even the B67 swallows the 32 bit 96khz format and sorry for you, but the VF isn't even a match for the old B16.


In what way, the clarity, the richness? I have listened to songs I've downloaded on my computer from back in the '70s, and I've listened to my own songs, and I'll be darned if I can hear a whole lot of difference in the quality. Of course, the professional songs of famous artists have access to a lot of effects that I don't have, but as far as clarity and clearness of being able to hear every instrument, bass guitar, drums, voices etc., it comes through very nicely, and I'm talking about my cheap little old VF. I'm not knocking a lot of the old reel to reel machines that a lot of professionals used to use, but I still say there is a lot to be said for the quality of digital recording that's available today.
If anyone else out there can vouch for what I'm saying, please feel free to throw your two cents worth in.

Tunes68.
 
Rokket said:
Not to sidetrack this thread, but it seems that the biggest reason that analog won't work for a lot of today's music (think autotune princesses) is that the talent isn't there to begin with. It seems to be all about the image...


I agree, the musicians I have been working with just assume that if they mess up, you will just pro-tools it and make them sound like a million bucks. Or if they have a $80 amp, you can make it sound like the latest Linkon Park album. Back in the analog days, what you layed down is what you got, so learning to be the best at your trade was the goal.
 
Tunes68 said:
Okay, so this means that since good analog equipment is no longer available to the average consumer, we are doomed to deal with digital sound from now on, and that it will never be able to sound as good as the high end analog equipment that studios used to use?

No longer?

Good analog equipment has ALWAYS been priced out of the range of the average consumer. As far as sounding as good as recordings in high end studios, that comes from three things, and the gear is by far the least important of them. The other two are the spaces in most great studios, and the skills of the engineers who get used in high end studios (and the guy with the ears, as I have already said, is by FAR the most important part of the technical equation).



Tunes68 said:
High end studio equipment is one thing, but how about the digital home recording equipment that is available to the average home recording enthusiast, like me? I own and use a Fostex VF160 16 track hard disc recorder. So what you guys are saying is that my VF160 will never be able to touch the quality of recording that say a Tascam 24 track analog reel to reel can? Not even by tweaking the sound of it on a computer?
If so, that's pretty sad, and it doesn't say much for how far our recording technology has come since the '60s and '70s. I realize that magnetic recording tape is a different format of recording than digital, but I didn't realize the difference was that much. As I said earlier, to my ears, my recordings on my VF160 sound superb, but I guess I'll have to hear some old analog recordings from the '70s and my own recordings to see how much of a difference there is.

Tunes68.


Actually, your VF 16 probably DOES sound better than most, if not all, Tascam 24 tracks. It does NOT, however, sound as good as an Otari or Studer 2" 24 track. That is my whole point; with analog gear, the quality of the gear makes a HUGE difference. A much bigger difference than with digital gear.

As far as how far recording technology has come, you are missing a big part of the equation. Recording technology since the 80's and 90's has not made anything even close to a linear progression. You have two distinctly different paths. On one path, you have analog tape, a technology which has been around (and which has been improving) since the 1940's. Longer really, but the quality of wire recordings was so bad that I seen no reason not to discount it. Before tape, you either cut direct to disc (lacquer or shellac, not CD) or you recorded optically to film. Your second path is digital sound, which has really only been around as a commercial product since the late 70's. You are talking about a technology which is close to 70 years old, and then you are comparing it to a technology which is less than 30. Of course analog still sounds better. It has had 40 extra years of research. It is not like you can really use all of the research in analog recording when trying to make digital sound better. They have vastly different issues. With analog, the struggle was always to improve the signal to noise ratio while keeping THD as low as possible. Those are not issues with digital, at all. With any digital device, s/n ratio and THD is a strictly mathematical expression of the bit depth. Digital has other problems, the solutions for which are still being found. It will get there, but it hasn't yet.

But if you look at my first post in this thread, you will note that I am using digital these days myself, even though I much prefer the sound of analog. Why? Because passable analog is not cheap, and great analog is horribly expensive.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
Actually, your VF 16 probably DOES sound better than most, if not all, Tascam 24 tracks. It does NOT, however, sound as good as an Otari or Studer 2" 24 track.

I wonder, did you ever had the opportunity to work with a Tascam multitrack for a longer period of time?

I'm afraid many peeps can't hear the difference between a Nakamichi 582 cassette player and a Studer A80 1/4" machine.

@Tunes68, the B16 should be in good condition and well aligned, if so it'll sound more true to the source than the VF.

A CD track, recorded to a hi end analog tape machine will sound nicer, like everything is glued together, the highs become more silky, this happens nine times out of ten.

A well aligned 2" deck with Emtec 900 at 30 ips will sound better than anything digital, even DSD (SACD).
 
Okay, okay, I guess I will concede then that analog tape recording, (on high end machines,) is better than digital recording. As I said earlier, I've never had the opportunity to use an expensive multi-track tape machine, so I'm just going on what I've used. Maybe someday, technology will come to the point where they will be able to make a digital recorder that sounds as good if not better than analog tape. Until then, I guess we'll have to be content to be using our inferior digital recorders, which don't sound TOO bad.

Tunes68.
 
Tunes68 said:
Okay, okay, I guess I will concede then that analog tape recording, (on high end machines,) is better than digital recording. As I said earlier, I've never had the opportunity to use an expensive multi-track tape machine, so I'm just going on what I've used. Maybe someday, technology will come to the point where they will be able to make a digital recorder that sounds as good if not better than analog tape. Until then, I guess we'll have to be content to be using our inferior digital recorders, which don't sound TOO bad.

Tunes68.

Someday digital will sound better than analog, but that day is far away.
I do have tapes that were recorded in the fifties by my dad, I can stiil play these tapes and my son will be able to play these tapes in 2055.

Think of that for a moment.
 
cost cost cost.

in some ways analog is more accurate than digital, a sound wave is (that i know) never a straight line (barring distortion) and evrything in digital is straight lines. i'm not really sure if thats worse or better than rounding though.

also, thare's no worry of sample rate in analog (although i'm sure thare's an equivelant, it's probably very high) and in an all analog system you don't have to cut off the freqs above 20K which while we may not be able to hear, test after test says we can precieve (up to about 30K) in timeing differences between our ears.
(read: important to perception of stereo field)
i think we're loosing more than we realize.
feel free to correct any errors


side track: i only wish i could record someone who dosen't rely on editing
 
Agreed giraffe...analog is superior when it come to stereo separation.

Listening to an orchestra on a record, you can practically hear where each of the individual instruments are.

But if all you listen to is Britney Spears, digital is just fine.
 
I take it that everyone who has contributed their opinions on this thread has had experience with some kind of analog equipment, right? The only decent recording equipment I've ever really used has been what I own now, which is my Yamaha MD8 and my VF160. I guess I thought I was using some of the best recording equipment that was being offered to the average consumer. Boy was I wrong. But even though analog tape is superior to digital, I do appreciate all the conveniences that digital recording has to offer. Sure, it's all edit, copy, splice and paste, but I feel that as a musician I am still giving the people that listen to my recordings the full scope of my talent. If I put together a song by myself with the equipment that I have, I may do a little bit of editing here and there, but people are still hearing what I have done and are being entertained by it. As someone else posted here mentioned that analog recording wouldn't work in today's market because he thinks that digital has too much to do with editing and not enough with the music. I disagree. If I record a lead guitar track and I'm not satisfied with it, I can erase it and record another. It's the same thing with a band who records a performance on analog gear. You can still record seperate tracks with analog equipment, and if a band comes back to overdub a seperate lead guitar track and is not happy with it, he can record it again. What's the difference?
The main difference I guess is the quality of the recording, which I guess I'll never be able to hear from an analog recorder.

Tunes68.
 
Tunes68 said:
I take it that everyone who has contributed their opinions on this thread has had experience with some kind of analog equipment, right? The only decent recording equipment I've ever really used has been what I own now, which is my Yamaha MD8 and my VF160. I guess I thought I was using some of the best recording equipment that was being offered to the average consumer. Boy was I wrong. But even though analog tape is superior to digital, I do appreciate all the conveniences that digital recording has to offer. Sure, it's all edit, copy, splice and paste, but I feel that as a musician I am still giving the people that listen to my recordings the full scope of my talent. If I put together a song by myself with the equipment that I have, I may do a little bit of editing here and there, but people are still hearing what I have done and are being entertained by it. As someone else posted here mentioned that analog recording wouldn't work in today's market because he thinks that digital has too much to do with editing and not enough with the music. I disagree. If I record a lead guitar track and I'm not satisfied with it, I can erase it and record another. It's the same thing with a band who records a performance on analog gear. You can still record seperate tracks with analog equipment, and if a band comes back to overdub a seperate lead guitar track and is not happy with it, he can record it again. What's the difference?
The main difference I guess is the quality of the recording, which I guess I'll never be able to hear from an analog recorder.

Tunes68.


Oh, but digital is used for so much more than just overdubbing these days. Between Autotune (which is no where near as useful in the rack mount version as it is ITB), various groove editors/quantizers (drumagog, isn't it?), and the ease of comping parts - not to mention sampling and such - editing is THE dominant force in modern pop music, and I am pretty sure I am not the only guy in the world who would be just as happy to never cut 2" again in my life. I don't mind cutting a two track 1/4" or 1/2" master, but 2" is another thing all together. Thank you NO. And what if the perfect bass line is on one take of a song, but the drum part is on another take? Well, I have never had much luck with window splices on 2" (mostly because I have never tried, it is just too damn scary), but in digital, I just point and click.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light, you really must be a happy guy, being so occupied in the ART of music.

Yes, I do have Nuendo but never use it, I have Cubase SX, Logic, Sonar and a couple more as well, but never use it. I have all versions of Autotune but I never use it, in fact I refuse to use it because it sounds weird.

The only software I use is Adobe Audition for mixing to 32/96 and make minor edits like cleaning up the beginning and the end of a song, or putting things together, like making crossfades. And I use CD architect for.............right!

I have two analog 24 track machines synced and an automated big board, so I don't see any reason to record digitally.

Light, you were making statements like a 1" 24 track sounding inferior which is untrue, I asked you questions but you didn't answer.

Now I ask you one last question, please read this: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/4641/1221/?SQ=9ce8be5e5f17cd15dff01ca3ff1de0dd

Have a nice day.
 
I get pretty sick of this 2"-snobbery you hear some people talk about.

Certain named people on this board are famous for saying, "if it's not 2", it's not true analog",... "not worth your time",... "anything less than 2" will not get you that analog sound you're looking for",... and all sorts of bullshit like that.

I could not disagree more, (putting it nicely). :eek:
 
Might as well jump-in too....... I'm now all-digital - and I couldn't be happier with the sound quality of my gear! (I was "mostly digital" before - mixed analog...)
 
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