Am I wrong in this? Doing photography...

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Myriad_Rocker

Myriad_Rocker

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I know this is kind of not really consistent with music but it has to do with my business, which does mixing among other things.

This guy posts a local ad on Craig's List wanting a photographer for an MMA show. I email him and tell him that I'll do the gig for a good price because I was trying to build up a portfolio.

He then told me that he wanted me to take some pictures of some models before the MMA show and that there would probably be nudity involved. That took me off guard and I started thinking about the legal implications of doing that kind of thing. So I did some online research about taking model pictures and such. I basically found out that I would need model release contracts and age verifcation forms signed by the models.

So I email this criteria to the guy and he goes off on me. "I RUN THE SHOW MY MODELS DON'T SIGN SHIT". Those were his exact words. Sans punctuation and everything. Trying to be business-like, I emailed him back and told him that that stuff was to cover my ass and it was nothing more. So he emails back and is acting like a total ass! "Bro didnt you get my last email? You arent getting ANY information from my models. I run a successful business and I deal with professional agencies every day. Ive never heard of this bullshit. You need to reword your statements if your going to be successful..." blah blah blah "it sounds like you dont know shit" blah blah blah. "Dont email me again"

Anyway, that was it in a nutshell. So I know that this guy is difficult and a total ass...but was I off base on needing this model release stuff? Especially the age verification. I mean, how am I to know? And it's not like I'm his employee. He wouldn't be liable for those pictures, I would.

I basically didn't even give him the pleasure of a reply. He said don't email him again but his comments were just begging for a reply. Something about him was fishy anyway. I had never heard of him or his business prior to this little exchange.
 
i know you want to build up your portfolio and it probably feels like you just screwed yourself of a job (and a chance to look at naked ladies ;) ) but you don't need that bullshit.. not worth it. If he was a legit good guy he would have respected your simple request of age verification.. your portfolio is not worth you going to jail over... also depending what way you want your portfolio to go would nude photographs really help you any?

you don't need to work with sketchy ass hole people... it's tough out there but honestly, the work is there for you to find.. legit work..
 
eeb said:
i know you want to build up your portfolio and it probably feels like you just screwed yourself of a job (and a chance to look at naked ladies ;) ) but you don't need that bullshit.. not worth it. If he was a legit good guy he would have respected your simple request of age verification.. your portfolio is not worth you going to jail over... also depending what way you want your portfolio to go would nude photographs really help you any?

you don't need to work with sketchy ass hole people... it's tough out there but honestly, the work is there for you to find.. legit work..
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The naked ladies were a perk. But I was only going to do that so he would let me do the photos for the MMA show, which I would use for my sports photos portfolio. And then maybe some of the more tame pictures of the ladies. :)

Thanks for the reply.
 
I think you were completely within your rights to address a release form and verification of age. There seems to be no logical reason why a legit promoter would have a major problem with that - or at very least why he could not respond in a professional manner.

Over the years I've found that people who conduct themsleves as you have discribed are not worth getting involved with. On the other side, people like you, who try to research and are prepared are normally a pleasure to work with.
 
mikeh said:
I think you were completely within your rights to address a release form and verification of age. There seems to be no logical reason why a legit promoter would have a major problem with that - or at very least why he could not respond in a professional manner.
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No kidding. There was really no reason for that kind of response. Especially since I was responding professionally. I don't think I could have held my temper if he said that to my face. I do martial arts and I would have used it all over his face and body. :D
mikeh said:
Over the years I've found that people who conduct themsleves as you have discribed are not worth getting involved with. On the other side, people like you, who try to research and are prepared are normally a pleasure to work with.
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Thanks, I appreciate that. I try to learn as much about things ahead of time as possible.
 
You behaved professionally in every way. Some people are just assholes and you happened to be dealing with one. Best not to be involved with such people.
 
It is kinda shady to advertise for one thing and demand another. Just maybe the reason he didn't want to advertise for the model shoot separately from the show is because his models are underage to begin with. Craigslist is free! What reason is there to not post as many ads as you require? maybe unwanted scrutiny?

Anybody who loses their cool while negotiating business probably can't be trusted further than thrown in my book. somebody like that is probably looking to rip you off in the end anyway.
 
Dude....don't even bother with that guy. He is doing something illegal for sure.

I have worked with many, MANY assholes in the music business. However, though some of the guys were assholes, NONE of them were ever out to dick me over to pull something over me. Most business people you will meet will be assholes, but these assholes are also some of the best/most professional people you will work with: They will bring out the best in you, offer you something in return, and understand/voice his/her own concerns.

The person you describe is NOT a good business person. Not only can I tell this through him not wanting to sign release forms....but because No good business person will EVER waste his/her time on doing business through email...NEVER. EVER.

Remember that line for the rest of your life.
 
Myriad_Rocker said:
I know this is kind of not really consistent with music but it has to do with my business, which does mixing among other things.

This guy posts a local ad on Craig's List wanting a photographer for an MMA show. I email him and tell him that I'll do the gig for a good price because I was trying to build up a portfolio.

He then told me that he wanted me to take some pictures of some models before the MMA show and that there would probably be nudity involved. That took me off guard and I started thinking about the legal implications of doing that kind of thing. So I did some online research about taking model pictures and such. I basically found out that I would need model release contracts and age verifcation forms signed by the models.

So I email this criteria to the guy and he goes off on me. "I RUN THE SHOW MY MODELS DON'T SIGN SHIT". Those were his exact words. Sans punctuation and everything. Trying to be business-like, I emailed him back and told him that that stuff was to cover my ass and it was nothing more. So he emails back and is acting like a total ass! "Bro didnt you get my last email? You arent getting ANY information from my models. I run a successful business and I deal with professional agencies every day. Ive never heard of this bullshit. You need to reword your statements if your going to be successful..." blah blah blah "it sounds like you dont know shit" blah blah blah. "Dont email me again"

Anyway, that was it in a nutshell. So I know that this guy is difficult and a total ass...but was I off base on needing this model release stuff? Especially the age verification. I mean, how am I to know? And it's not like I'm his employee. He wouldn't be liable for those pictures, I would.

I basically didn't even give him the pleasure of a reply. He said don't email him again but his comments were just begging for a reply. Something about him was fishy anyway. I had never heard of him or his business prior to this little exchange.
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pffft. the guy is an idiot. Just throw him to the curb and watch the police eventually throw him in jail. You don't need to be caught up with sheisters like that moron. They absolutely need to sign everything you read if not even more. He is trying to take advantage of people.
 
If this guy was for real, why the fuck is he advertising on Craigslist for crying out loud?

Seriously. Successful businesses that deal with professionals every day can afford traditional advertising and referral services.
 
The only thing I would have done different is this:

I would have asked HIM to sign a statement clerifying my involvement. IE: Cover my ass so I'M not held in any way respnsible for his illegal activities... if he's legit he'd have no problem... otherwise he's clearly NOT legit.
 
I've done professional photography. Yes, you need a release from all models. The only way you might not need one is if you contract models from an agency. The agency might give you verification of a release form or something similar if they are keeping personal stats private. Age verification forms are a way to keep your ass out of a jam. I would definitely have them sign a waiver. Over 18 is no problem, but if you get a 16 or 17 year old that lies about their age, that is where the waiver comes in to cover your ass.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over missing that "opportunity".
 
tanlith said:
The only thing I would have done different is this:

I would have asked HIM to sign a statement clerifying my involvement. IE: Cover my ass so I'M not held in any way respnsible for his illegal activities... if he's legit he'd have no problem... otherwise he's clearly NOT legit.
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That will not keep YOU out of jail or protect you assets if you get sued.

The basic rule of law is that YOU are responsible and if you do something you KNOW is illegal you get hammered for it. A letter from him would not protect you any more than a letter saying "I am just hiring George to drive my car, so when I rob a bank don't hold him accountable for my actions..."

There are legitimate jobs out there. Don't get wrapped up in an asshat that's going to cause you nothing but grief (and probably shaft you for the payment anyway...)
 
Anytime that I have modelled I have had to provide 2 photo identifications (one being issued from the government) to prove my age, even though itis very obvious that I am well over 18.

However, I have worked with photographers where I did not sign a model release for the simple reason that I wanted to maintain control of my pictures.

The general rule though is that if you are getting paid by a photographer and he wants to use his photos as he likes, a model release must be signed, and imo, anyone that is not ready to provide the age verification and not willing to discuss in a civilized manner the model release issue is not a someone that you want to work with.
 
Wow, I have never have I've never seen such shadiness in my life. That guy obviously was trying to get one over on you. Is there anyway you can report that guy? I'm sure he has a history of doing this sort of thing.
 
You should have just done the gig and seen some titties. I don't see why he would let you get releases. The pictures are his not yours, releases are his business.
 
The model release thing could go either way. If he was paying you he could have the right to want to keep the pictures. The age verification would have been a must though... Kiddy porn is not something you want to get caught up in.
 
mrT said:
The model release thing could go either way. If he was paying you he could have the right to want to keep the pictures. The age verification would have been a must though... Kiddy porn is not something you want to get caught up in.
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You got that right. Government don't f*** with underage ish. Feds will be on your ass like flys at a BBQ.
 
screw him ...... I'd have e-mailed him back and told him that his response indicated to you that you should report him to the authorities ...... I'm betting that would have gotten a very quick apology and "gee ..... I was just out of sorts that day."
In fact ..... PM me his e-mail and I'll get the ball rolling.

As for the opportunity ...... there was none ..... an asshole like that may have not had access to the event anyway ..... could easily have been a ruse because he couldn't advertise on Craigslist that he needed a nudie photog.
And, as others have said, if it werean underage thing ...... the cops don'taccept "I was justanswering an ad" as an excuse.
 
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