Am I delusional? - Rock artist needs advice

K

kerriobrown

New member
I thought these were great songs! Would anybody here be willing to critique my music? The one called “Six Feet Above Ground” is finalized, and the other song (“Ride Like Arrival”) is a more energetic rough draft I need to know if is worth pursuing. Note that since the latter is not normalized you will have to turn it up more.

Here’s the link if you’d rather skip my back-story below: http://www.myspace.com/kerriobrown

Recently I decided to get back into writing music because I thought I have something worth sharing. After completing my first song, my response from others was more muted than I expected. I got a lot of “I like it” and “It’s good”. The mark of a good song is if people listen to it again on their own and that’s not happening.

Anyway, I’ll no doubt continue to write, but I’m not going to sacrifice nearly as much time if it’s not worth it to anyone else. In particular, I’ve added a very rough draft of a second song here (Ride Like Arrival), for which I need to normalize, replace some vox, reduce some FX and the bass, and change some drum fills. But I won’t plan on finishing it if it sucks.

I had convinced myself that maybe no one seemed that interested because they are not big music fans in general. The other fantasy I’ve had is maybe they’re not getting it, no one really likes a lot of the music I listen to either. But given the response to the 2nd song so far I’m starting to feel the more probable scenario is that there is something unlistenable about these songs that I’m not getting. Maybe they are cliché, or just not that interesting in general.

I’m all for having someone else perform the vocals and/or have a professional record/mix/master the songs if I thought that was THE answer, but I won’t waste the time and $ if that will turn a mediocre song into a just decent song. I also feel like I have better songs than these, but if that just means decent, then I’d rather concentrate on things I know I’m good at.

Thanks for the help! Please be honest since I’d rather find out now rather than later after squandering other talents that others agree I actually have!

Thanks again,
Kerrio
 
First off...you have a rather negative attitude going into the world of songwriting and recording.
Are these your first couple of song attempts? If so...it takes time and work...you can't get all bummed out right at the start if people aren't all excited about your music.

Now...AFA the music...

In both songs...the main thing I don’t like is that your guitars are fighting with the vocals throughout.

The first song is also suffering from "loose" arrangement and production...it just kinda rambles on for 6 minutes.
I would start from the beginning...work on a structured arrangement, strip some of those guitars OUT, and then do the vocals with some punch.
I'm also not that crazy about the lead guitar tone, as it sounds more like a synth than a guitar...but, that's my personal preference, so go with what you like.

On the second song, there's a bit more defined structure, but still, the guitars fight with the vocals...and the overall production on it just like on the first songs…is rather unclear.
You don't want to just toss in a whole bunch of individual music elements give 'em a quick stir and assume they will al work just 'cuz they are all in the same key and following the right chord pattern.

Spend more time on pre-production...really nailing the essence of each song and then coming up with parts that work for the song. Don't make it so busy with parts overlapping and stepping on each other...try stripping out stuff...think more about dynamics, as the songs have a rather run-on sentence quality.

That said...I DO hear a couple of songs there!
You just need to develop them better, IMO....that's all.

And knock it off with all that defeatist crap...otherwise, you might as well just quit now and go find some boring hobby.
 
+1 for the above sentiment


whats wrong with "I like it" or "its good"?


my first attempts at recording/song writing were unlistenable...even now this is all learning the ropes...if folks say they like it or its good Im borderline ecstatic..I can only imagine how Ill improve by this time next year..maybe they'll say "this is really good, I really like it"!


as for the songs...miros right on the nose when it comes to the vocals and the guitars, I thought the drums sounded like they were out a box and didn't cut through the mix, too much verb on them as well imo

Id say stick all the faders back to zero..and the panning..get the vocals to a level you want and mix the song around them...lose some of the cymbals and make sure the drums are up there too


but there is a song in there you just have to clear some of this out...dont be afraid to dump/mute some of the guitars to give it more clarity


also posting i the MP3 clinic will get you more response plus listen to other folks mixes and compare them to your own..dont forget to comment, then folks will comment on yours

be prepared though...some folks will be harsh

I think my first comment was "dude this is hurting my ears" :)
 
Regarding the preserves: Once you've had black, you can never go back!

Kerrio,

I think the song "Six Feet Above Ground" is very good, it sounds like circa 2000 alternative rock.

But that lead guitar yapping away through the whole, entire, f***ing song - well, that needs to be cut back by 90%. It's like a woman that won't shut up. And the effect needs to be changed on it...I personally think it needs some Fender Twin TUBE CRUNCH rather than the solid-state overdrive sound you've used.

And, do you really need a drum fill in every measure? The drums should provide the backbeat, with the occasional fill thrown in to add drama.

You could easily improve the recording by just mixing it differently, taking a more minimalist approach on drums and lead guitar, and making a few tweaks - the raw material is almost all there.

Nice work, now get back to the mixing desk! :-)

-Mike
 
This is really great help! Overall, it sounds like I need the most work on the actual production aspect. It's a relief to know there's something there under it all. It's great to get such specific suggestions to try out.

I agree 110% about the lead guitars on Six Feet Above Ground. I cringe every time I hear the sound of the guitars, and plan on redoing. I'm glad I waited b/c I should really take some of it out as you said. I was stubborn about taking stuff out, I think because I got bored of the songs as I went through them over time, so I kept on trying to add in interesting things. I literally can't imagine how cluttered it sounds b/c I've heard it a billion times, but I'm worried that I'll stop liking the song if there isn't enough in there for me to hear. It's definitely worth trying to simplify though.

I also agree that Six Feet rambles on, and I kind of thought of this version as the extended version for my guitar friends. But I think my vanity in wanting to prove my ability to write good leads took over. My next version will cut it down.

Miroslav: I'm torn about the dynamics suggestion. Is there a particular part(s) of 'Ride Like Arrival' you think comes out of nowhere? I have one part in mind, but I also feel like there's a part of me that just likes that style (I'm a huge fan of prog rock). The counter-argument I guess would be that I could still keep putting in lots of stuff but in a way that flows better, but I have to admit I really tried to keep it flowing.

Didn't mean to give a "poor me" or "my feelings are hurt" story, you just never know if you're like one of those awful American Idol tryouts, and I've been worried that there is really a continuum of delusion.

I'll post on the MP3 clinic w/o the sob story after trying some of your suggestions.

Thanks again to all, my first job will be to try and provide some feedback for others on this site. I think it could help me understand my own production issues too.

K
 
New to the site, just saw this. Been songwriting for a while, so can give my views from that side of it on your first song.

Six feet above ground. The verse is perfect the way you've written it, vocals sound kind of withdrawn & calmer. Guitars are reasonably gentle along side them (need to be quieter as said, the vocals should stand out more). But you've the basic foundation of a good verse, works well. Catchy.

The chorus doesnt progress much for me. Its all about dynamics for a listener. It should sound fuller here, there should be more going on than in the verse. In songs you're building up to the chorus, thats where you sum up what the songs about generally. This is the focal point of it all, it should stand out. On yours the vocals are around the same level as the verse, they dont progress much. The guitars dont sound much fuller than the verse, even though you're now strumming.
From 0:50 to 1:08 it sounds more like a prechorus building into a larger part, but gets cut short & goes back into the verse instead.

If you wanted to keep all that the same anyway, you definately need to build it more. Closer to how it sounds the final time you do it, without the lead guitar trying to dominate it all. Keep the backing vocals etc. People generally find vocal melodies catchy, not often lead guitar parts. Everything else is there to compliment the vocal melody, not overtake it. If you want to go crazy with the lead guitar, put it in the instrumental part after your bridge leading up to the final chorus. You have yours all over the place trying to take over.

Apart from that the vocals generally need to stand out more as others have said. But you've the makings of a good song there, thats the only reason ive offered my opinion. Read about songwriting online, learn as many tips as you can about how to structure it all. Listen to other songs and study how they're stuctured also & you're sorted.
 
kerriobrown said:
Miroslav: I'm torn about the dynamics suggestion. Is there a particular part(s) of 'Ride Like Arrival' you think comes out of nowhere?
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I was thinking more of the first tune...but I'm also talking about two types of dynamics that you can use for both songs.
Dynamics with levels and dynamics with the arrangement.

You want to have some give and take, build up to a point, then pull back a bit, then build up again.
All that must be tied to the structure of the song (intro/verses/choruses/solos/outro)...and to the arrangement of the music. Everything must work together to drive home the main point of the song.
Don't just put in stuff because it sounds "cool".
If you're going to have some guitar riffing away...it MUST support the song, the vocals...etc,
This is what you need to think about during the pre-production and then work towards during the production.

Pick up just your guitar...maybe even an acoustic....and then sit down and play through the songs a bunch of times singing along, and find/feel the essence, the center, the vibe, of each song before you start throwing in all kinds of decorative parts...and then when you work out parts, make sure they support that vibe.
Don't allow any of the parts to just go off on their own...that's what makes the arrangement appear scattered and unfocused.

I use to do that too…and still catch myself doing at times…OVER producing, throwing in WAY too many things just cuz they sound cool individually…but combined, they actually take away from the core vibe of the song, and too many individual elements can pull the song in opposing directions.
That all comes from having too many ideas…which is not a bad thing, and you seem to have a lot of ideas…but you have to use restraint at times, strip things out, and only use those things that strengthen the song…not clutter it and weaken it.

Less is more...or as someone once said...it's not the notes, but the spaces in-between them that make the music interesting...(something like that). :)
 
Razien, I see your point if we both agree what the chorus is, I am pretty sure we do. I've gotten the critique before that my vox were to static throughout. I chose this song to do first b/c I thought I could get away with that, since I feel like I sound phony when I got more emotional, but I should try for the sake of the song quality.

Miroslav, I'm hoping that I accomplish less is more by taking out unneeded stuff as you said. I doubt I'll be taking out any sections altogether except for severely shortening the end (maybe removing), since I did feel good about the general sections capturing the ups and downs of the song. Maybe I'll remove one of the breaks and see what happens.

Thanks again, it's back to work for the week which is 24/5, so hopefully I can start applying advice this weekend.

Kerrio
 
If this helps, I like your songs. Don't panic because you aren't getting repeat hits on MySpace, many of the people there are kids who want to hear something more "beat driven." I will agree that you could improve on both the arraingement and the mix but I do hear the potential for a couple of really good songs.
 
kerriobrown said:
Recently I decided to get back into writing music because I thought I have something worth sharing.
Click to expand...

There's where it all went wrong.

Don't worry about anyone liking your songs. Chances are most people won't - unless it's some vapid, radio freindly garbage. Your defeatist attitude is actually correct. Don't be naive. You're most likely not gonna become a millionaire, and it's very likely that most people don't give a shit about your songs. The sooner you wake up and realize this, the sooner you will be able to just have fun making songs for yourself.
 
+1.

I'm with Greg. Do it because YOU want to do it. If anybody else digs it that's a bonus, not a pre-requisite.

Amanda
 
I agree that you should be into it to make music you find satisfying personally, but ignoring others completely wont be massively helpful either.

Learning how to make your music connect with others is a process also. One of the greatest things about music is its ability to effect others & cause emotion, learning how to do this is only a positive thing. No one starts out perfectly & obviously a rough product of something you made is going to be far more appealing to you than someone else as you already connected with it through the creation process. You've already been effected. Others wont have been & thats what songwriting is all about, learning to put that across.

Certain types of music will have bigger audiences than others sure, but any type of music will have people who like it if its well written/produced.
 
As i say because you can use feedback to learn how to improve, as with anything. You may also end up liking the composition more based on others opinions of how it could be made better. Obviously its your choice whether you agree with the feedback & think it improves your music. If you dont thats fine, but you give yourself little room to grow ignoring everyone elses ears from the very start.
 
Razien said:
As i say because you can use feedback to learn how to improve, as with anything.
Click to expand...

Improve what? The mix? Sure. The performance? Sure. The songwriting? No way. As soon as you go changing shit at the whim of your audience, then you suck. Say goodbye to integrity and honesty. As I said before, just write whatever you want to write. If people dig it, great. If not, fuck em.
 
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