All my ideas are cheesy

S

ssseals

New member
Been writing songs for years (in a band & solo) and perform out a couple of times a month. Try to debut 1 or 2 new songs per gig. Good ideas, bad ideas, keep on writing.

Well, the majority of my ideas just sound plain cheesy to me. Tonight, I'm writing a song about growing up and the perspective that you lose when you do. I just feel like I'm your stereotypical, singer/songwriter, sensitive, guy with an acoustic guitar.

Lots of lost-love songs, a few finding-yourself songs, a few post-marriage songs (trying to be more positive, now that I'm happier than when I was single), lots of "longing" songs.

I really don't want to write "angry" songs (for example) but just something that I feel is art instead of cheese. Do you all second-guess most of your songs? I try not to care what people think, and just write/play what I want to, but get the feeling sometimes that I'm that guy that noone wants to tell him that he sucks, cause he tries so hard.

Oh, well, back to the song...
 
I like cheese....ya know?

Anyways....sounds like you are just venting...it's natural...ya know?

Sometimes I feel the way you do...and I have only been writing for a short time....
Your attitude is cool though...ya keep on writing and playing...
That shows that you are truly into it...ya know?
It is good that you try hard....if it was easy...everyone would do it...yes?

Later,
Joe

P.S. I second guess every song I write.....I am never truly satisfied with any of them...ya know?
 
I dont claim to be a master songwriter, but I know some things about creative writing in general, and one thing i would say is when you feel cheesy its probably because you write too much about YOURSELF...do all songs tend to be about you or your old girlfriend or your family or things like that. Write about other people...make them up....make them completely different from yourself. Lou Reed was really good at using characters in his songs. But dont make it cheesy.....Art is art not self expression ...an interesting distinction but crucial i think. Try different techniques...tune the guitar differently...write songs with just a bass guitar....record a backwards guitar part ....anything

try to really compare what you are doing with what is cool in contemporary music....not whats on the classic rock station that was cool thirty years ago....i still like a lot of that stuff but everyone has to move on from those forms and discover something new

good luck

47ronin
 
I'm with 47ronin. Telling a story in a song is one of the best ways to get away from the I/me/mine thing. I don't necessarily mean like a concept album, either, although that's certainly valid. Take a look at some of your favorite songwriters' work.

Just a quick glance at the catalog of Beatles tunes would give you a lot to work with: "Eleanor Rigby," "She's Leaving Home," "Taxman," "Penny Lane," and on and on.

Tons of country tunes are stories (see Kenny Rogers' "The Gambler," written by Don Schlitz).

Check out "Silent Cries" by Fates Warning (from their album *No Exit*); lots of metal bands do story songs.

Randy Newman is considered by many to be one of the best storytellers in song. His "untrustworthy narrator" approach is worth investigating.

Bob Dylan, of course, is always good for this sort of thing, too.

I could keep going, but you see the point. Use third person and get outside of yourself for a change of pace when you feel "cheesy." But don't completely abandon it; come back to it from time to time.

Good luck, dude :D.
 
47ron........Art is not self expression? There is a difference in art and self expression?


art is entirely self expression....even when you write from the perspective of a narrator or charactor you're still the one who is making the charactor or narrator up, right?......So art is self expression by default; there is no way to get around that :)....


Here, look at it this way...Lets say you and I both have twenty songs each; all written from the point of view of charactors we have invented...I would be willing to bet everything I own that we would see patterns with in our repsective songs that are highly typical of the ourselves; ....You would undoubtabely come up with certain types of charactors and I would also come up with certain types of charactors....In otherwords, We both would have tendencies to write about certain things regardless of the perspective and point of view in the song. AND the determining factor that would establish the difference between what you write and what I right would be the "Self." It would be the difference between how you choose to express Yourself and how I choose to express myself.............Your selling art short by not admiting that it is self expression.....Art does not exist w/o self expression........Every story you tell is just that; "a story you tell."

From a psychological standpoint, often times charactors that we invent often reflect parts of ourselves that we wish to unleash or parts of themselves that we haven't reconciled with........In other words every charactor in a song is nothing more than an archetypal figure representing the self; much in the same way charactors in all ancient myths are archetypal figures of the self....And Much in the same way as how every charactor in your dreams is essentially a different manifestation of yourself......Most all great fictional authors recognize that all of their charactors are on some level represenatives of the "self." I could go on and on about the origin and psychology behind art but I won't......I don't want to start a flame war.....Just thought I give you another perpsective to ponder :)



Anyhow SSeals....Sorry to go off on a tangent in your thread.....I don't want to disscount what 47ron said either....He does have a point; writing from the point of view of a charactor could be beneficial for you......Often times when one is brutally honest with him/herself in their song writing and they are writing directly about themselves they will almost always come to the conclusion that you have drawn; "my stuff sounds cheesy."..(even though I would say that this feeling is indicative of the fact that you are probably on the right track!).....Anyway this feeling of cheesyness, from a psychological point of view, is what makes writing from the point of view of another a viable option; allowing you to feel more comfortable about self expression by telling a story through the eyes of another....One could actually make the argument, that psychologically, this is the reason why stories are traditionally told this way..............It is natural for us to do this.......our dreams are proof of this........All your charactors are essentially you; only your wearing a mask and nobody knows it is you...and so you don't have to worry about being cheesy.....Ever notice how people act much different at holloween parties when they are dressed up in costume and nobody knows who they are?......They tend to act in a more innocent child like fashion....Infact, you could make the argument that people actually act more like themselves in these cases.....uncontrived so to speak............The same principle is operating when you write a song from the perspective of a charactor.......So when we write songs from a charactors perspective we allow ourselves to say and do things that, out of fear or other reasons, we would not ordinarily do..........A charactor, for some people, is what they need inorder to be themselves........For these people, their charactors are often more like themselves than the songs that they actually write about themselves; which are usually contrived and unhonest, for whatever reason.. :)


On another note.....I wouldn't bother listening too much to what's hip this week for inspiration........What isn't cheesy? Everything is.......What's cool this week is cheesy the next.....Ya know? If your true to yourself than at least you can always hang your hat on that!!!!!!!


- nave
 
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Yeah, I agree with what most of you have said. I think I know what you meant by the Art/Self-Expression thing. I don't like watching someone on stage crying their heart out. If they're presenting a song in a passionate manner, that's one thing. But if the point of the song is simply expression, it's not very interesting or entertaining. I like some kind of context and univerality to the crying. Enough of that.

I try to make my songs have a universal appeal, so when I AM writing about myself/my experiences, I hope people can relate, cause I've illustrated a common feeling. Often, I'll write about myself, but like I'm talking about someone else. Then it's not me, me, me. It's "She said..." "He was left standing..." etc.

But I think some of the "cheesy-ness" comes from that univerality of it. "We all need a little time..." or "You wish that you could go back, but time has moved on...", etc. Just loose examples.
Trying to sum up a feeling instead of singing about a specific moment.

I agree about telling stories, I love good story songs. I just haven't written that many that I like. I have a hard time "feeling" it. And that's what I want to change, not so I lose my "feeling", but so the song is about more than the "feeling". I want entertaining songs as well as emotional ones, to mix up within a set or album.

I feel like I've come a long way in the last couple of months/year, but I'm looking for the next step (to my evolution). The way the craft reflects the subject matter. Since I'm playing these songs out, I actually have an audience to consider when I'm thinking of what I want to say and how I'm saying it. Thanks all.
 
all mine have dairy content

Dude ,all my stuff is cheesy ,but we played our 4th gig this weekend as a band together. I never know what the audience is gonna think of my stuff ,which i cowrite with the lead singer,we have played biker parties and friends parties but this week i think we found our audience we got three offers to do more parties . We were concerned that our originals were'nt cuttin th mustard so we upped th covers, everyone cmplimented us on our orignals though and it made the whole bands nite . I think your own songs are sorta like family , you think nobody has a family as wierd as yours then one day you meet someone who says how your mom or dad influenced them an you go ,yeah i know they are pretty cool after all, i think we're our worst critics sometimes .....here's to cheese
 
I meant that art is not synonymous with self expression....anyone can express themselves, fewer people can do it artfully.

as for the universal seeming lyrics,,,i sometimes have that problem....

use more nouns...names of places, things on the street etc...they kind of have to be specific and if they relate to the overall feel of the song they work better than general vague statements


listen to leonard cohen for songs that are very emotional without being too general

47ronin
 
Good thread and good question.
I think the key is so old and boring but, ya gotta do that "what I know and how I know it" thang. I won't get into it but, after a bundle of incomprehensible years of humans and music, I think we've covered all bases. The heart and vibe comes from how you ran the bases and how you stepped and felt along the way. And that is just in the past tense. It isn't possible to be cheesy unless you are trying to please something other than that mystical songwriters "muse". This is, afterall, an artfull expression.
Theron.
 
theron said:
I think the key is so old and boring but, ya gotta do that "what I know and how I know it" thang.
Click to expand...

I agree. One of my English professors used to tell us that, when writing or preparing to write, you should investigate your own backyard very closely. The tendency is to try to get out into the world to find worthwhile subjects to cover, but many times the stuff you have in your own neighborhood is better. You know your own backyard better than you do much or most of the rest of the world. You can write about it with confidence because it's yours; you know every inch of it, because you spend time in it.

Now his suggestion isn't intended to be taken literally (well, unless your backyard happens to be a jungle, a forest, or something else exciting :p ). Look at your own relationships, attitudes, feelings, friends, family, and so forth. The tricky part is writing about what you know but in a way that includes the listener. If your songs are too specific about yourself/your life, the songs will be like private jokes ("You had to be there"). But if the songs are too broad in scope, listeners will be bored or indifferent; they've heard it before, since nothing under the sun is truly new ;).

Well, you get the point. I'll stop rambling and let you get back to writing :D.
 
But what about the music...

I rarely have a lyrical idea without already having most of the musical theme written. I usually get the inspiration for lyrics from the musical style, chord progression, structure, etc. From my perspective, trying to write music specifically for a set of lyrics would be very difficult.

What does the music make you think of? Is it subtle in it's theme or does it play like an anthem? A strong chorus that longs for a hook, or a story that never repeats any phrase? These are things that go through my mind (at least I think they do) when I'm trying to write lyrics.

And...if it's cheesy and it sounds good, who cares! Vive le fromage!
 
There's cheese and cheese

Some people are so afraid of sounding "cheesy" or "old-fashioned", or "sappy", that they try to sound "cool" instead.

They distort their voice so that you can't understand the lyrics, they slur their words because that makes them sound like they're "feeling it". They don't sound cheesy because they don't sound like anything - they're blah. They just sound like everyone else...now that's cheesy.

Sometimes people are made uncomfortable by a song because it's too honest and doesn't fit in with music that supposed to be "hip"...so they call it cheesy.

I've had this trouble with my band-mates. Most of my songs aren't as pop-sounding as theirs are. They sound slightly old-fashioned. My fellow bandmembers are mostly teen-agers and they were so afraid of "not-being-hip", that they would not play with me on any of my songs that weren't contemporary sounding.
At first I took it to mean that my songs maybe weren't as good, or they just didn't like the songs. But I've come to realize that my band mates weren't really listening to the songs. They dismissed them simply because they didn't sound up-to-date.

So I would take a moment out of our set and I would play my song by myself. The songs usually got good reactions from the audience...especially those who were a little older and maybe more mature. Often members of the audience would come up after the show and say that they wanted more of my songs.

Now the band is a little more open to my music. Another thing I've discovered is that the audience really picks up on whether the performer is confident in the music they are playing. If you are on stage thinking, "this is so cheesy", the audience picks up on that. If you perform the songs without worrying if they're cheesy or not the audience won't worry about it either.

There is one thing that is universally cheesy however:

A performer who is thinking, "This is a song I wrote when I lost a love and it's really deep and meaningful and it shows what a deep person I am and the audience is going to be in awe of the deep-seated emotions that I'm conveying through this song," -

It's easy to tell when a performer is thinking like this and it is soooooo cheesy. I know cause I'm guilty of it and I see others do it too often.

If you've got a cheesy love song, sing it with confidence but don't be condescending.

Tucci
 
Yeah, I agree again. I make it a point when I'm playing out, not to introduce my songs with a negative statement like... "This song is pretty cheesy, but..." or "I can't sing this one real well, but...". That just puts ideas in the audiences head before they hear it, so you make your fears a reality. Along the same lines, I've found that when you put your confidence forth, people also pick up on that.

Back to the writing. There are many songs that I feel like I've really said whatever it is that I wanted to convey. Cheesy be damned. It really is in the eye of the beholder.

It's not something that I worry about, but what made me start this thread is... I find that when I start a new song and I'm just playing around with melody/words, there are familiar lyrical phrases that come out. And these seem to be those generalized "generic" statments. For whatever reason, I have a tendency to gravitate toward subject matter that is reflective instead of story-based, etc. It's like always going back to the same "licks" in your guitar solos.
 
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