Advice from Ralph Murphy-VP of ASCAP

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d(-_-)b-Phones said:
The record insdustry has been taking a huge hit HUGE hit from DL's online, So the problem is this ... Making the labels more picky and less likely to sign somthing they dont think will sell to radio or soundtracks.
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This is very true. Speaking as a pro musician I can say that I have had success as a songwriter but things are a lot harder these days due in no short part to the downloading of tracks illegally. It makes everyone jumpy and less likely to sign interesting bands and artists. Gone are the days of the three album deal I'm afraid!
 
Seems to me there are two types of song writer. The type who look at a trend, what's selling currently, what the market demands, what will please the labels (maybe). These types of songwriters basicaly want to make money by writing 'hit' songs. This is who the 'chicken' email is aimed at and from that standpoint doesn't seem like bad advice. So for example if you were this type of songwriter you'd currently be trying to write r'n'b type stuff, rap and hip hop and dance music, because that's what makes the charts. You can usualy spot these writers, visit their site and you'll find stuff they have written in a variety of genres 'here's me doing country, here's me doing indie', 'here's some of my dance tunes' etc etc. The best job for these people is as in-house writers for a label, turning out whatever is required in a genre for an artist who can't write themselves.

Then there's the other type of songwriter who writes because they have something they want to express. They are not too concerned about what happens to be selling at the moment, they would write what they write come what may as fashions come and go, shifting units to make money is not a concern, but if it happens great. Sometimes by luck and happy circumstance some of these interesting and creative people actualy get a chance to make records (an example is Tom Waits).

I'm not making judgements about either, just making a point that IMHO much of this 'how to write a hit song' type stuff is really aimed at the first category of writer, not the second.
 
I'm ....just trying....to [gasp]....get to my....100th post....ignore me....ARGGGGG!!!
 
...almost there....I can SMELL it!!!

Actually I hate people that post formulas for songwriting.

Did rappers think about archaic radio formulas when they started doing there first raps?
 
Did Bob Dylan think about iambic pentameter when he wrote about the whores in New Orleans?
 
Did Pete Townshend worry about radio length for a hit as he put together the synth intro to "Won't Get Fooled Again"?

...just one more....post!!!
 
glynb said:
Seems to me there are two types of song writer. The type who look at a trend, what's selling currently, what the market demands, what will please the labels (maybe). These types of songwriters basicaly want to make money by writing 'hit' songs. This is who the 'chicken' email is aimed at and from that standpoint doesn't seem like bad advice. So for example if you were this type of songwriter you'd currently be trying to write r'n'b type stuff, rap and hip hop and dance music, because that's what makes the charts. You can usualy spot these writers, visit their site and you'll find stuff they have written in a variety of genres 'here's me doing country, here's me doing indie', 'here's some of my dance tunes' etc etc. The best job for these people is as in-house writers for a label, turning out whatever is required in a genre for an artist who can't write themselves.

Then there's the other type of songwriter who writes because they have something they want to express. They are not too concerned about what happens to be selling at the moment, they would write what they write come what may as fashions come and go, shifting units to make money is not a concern, but if it happens great. Sometimes by luck and happy circumstance some of these interesting and creative people actualy get a chance to make records (an example is Tom Waits).

I'm not making judgements about either, just making a point that IMHO much of this 'how to write a hit song' type stuff is really aimed at the first category of writer, not the second.
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Of course there is a lot of in between ground too. Folks who write because they have something to say and are skilled enought to say it in a way that translates to a hit song ;) :D.

One other point. At least as far as the Nashville market goes. If you are writing what's on the radio, you are two years behind. You need to write ahead of the curve. The songs on the radio now were written & pitched a couple years ago. Songs written and pitched today will likely not see radio air play for a couple more years.

I haven't exactly figured out how to do this. I suspect it is knowing people in he industry who have that sort of knowledge (or at least an educated guess). Of course, there will be some standard type stuff that will always be around, but the staff writers probably have the best shot at getting those heard ;).

In other words, if chicken songs are playing on the radio this year and dog songs were all the rage last year, perhaps you may need to be writing cat songs? Who knows :D
 
Jack Russell said:
Did Pete Townshend worry about radio length for a hit as he put together the synth intro to "Won't Get Fooled Again"?

...just one more....post!!!
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Well he wasn't a struggling unknown was he? At that stage of his career he was at the top of his game and could have written anything he wanted, like a rock opera for example! When artists are big enough with the support of the label they can write anything and put it out, that's when you get creative stuff hitting the mainstream.

If as an unknown trying to get somewhere you write something with an overly long introduction I doubt you'll get very far in the conventional songwritinng scene .
 
Jagular said:
Of course there is a lot of in between ground too. Folks who write because they have something to say and are skilled enought to say it in a way that translates to a hit song ;) :D.

One other point. At least as far as the Nashville market goes. If you are writing what's on the radio, you are two years behind. You need to write ahead of the curve. The songs on the radio now were written & pitched a couple years ago. Songs written and pitched today will likely not see radio air play for a couple more years.

I haven't exactly figured out how to do this. I suspect it is knowing people in he industry who have that sort of knowledge (or at least an educated guess). Of course, there will be some standard type stuff that will always be around, but the staff writers probably have the best shot at getting those heard ;).

In other words, if chicken songs are playing on the radio this year and dog songs were all the rage last year, perhaps you may need to be writing cat songs? Who knows :D
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I didn't say one group of songwriters wrote hits and the other type wrote art.

What i meant was there are jobbing songwriters who try to write hits in order to have a career in the business, these are the type of pweople who look for trends and try to write songs to fit the trend in order to get signed up, etc etc. They are chameleon like and will change their style to fit whatever is required. Then there are the artists who write to express something they feel, they can have hits and if they sell units too then great, but its not the main motivator. The artist won't be writing about cats, chicken or dogs, but instead will be writing about whatever moved him/her to write.

Like I said, there's room for both types as they serve different functions really. Like there's room for people who use paint and brush to paint your house or those who use paint and brush to express themselves on canvass, room for both, but lets not confuse the two.
 
Did Jon Anderson worry about the meaning when he penned words to "Roundabout", thus launching the success of Yes?
 
Did Roger Waters and David Gilmour worry about the commercial value of the huge smash hit "Dark Side of the Moon?"
 
Did Mike Holmgren ponder the ramifications of his 'gut instinct' of sticking with a young wildman in Brett Favre, knowing that failure would be the end of his employment as coach?

You gotta hang tough baby!!!! Don't listen to the moguls of plastic plasticene rock formula bullshit.
 
Jack Russell said:
Did Roger Waters and David Gilmour worry about the commercial value of the huge smash hit "Dark Side of the Moon?"
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No, but they were different times. Bands were signed and developed back then and were considered to have a career. Pink Floyd and Led Zep were also able to fill Stadium gigs too and those are long gone. Kate Bush was signed at 16 and didn't release anything until she was 18, in fact the vocal on Wuthering Heights is the original demo vocal from when she was 16. Jimmy Page was doing session work for many overtly 'pop' acts here in the UK as well.

Go with the flow if you want to eat.
 
Jack,

You can throw out examples all day long. All of the examples you show above are examples of artists that write their own material. There is a WORLD of differnence between that and a non-artist writer trying to get a cut. That's what the Ralph Murphy stuff is about. It's a whole different standard.

And yes, it is a different time. I'm not saying it's better or worse. Just different. I like old Zep & Yes & The Who. Great stuff. But me writing that kind of stuff for anything other than enjoyment is useless if my goal is to get commercial cuts. Especially in Nashville ;). That doesn't mean I wouldn't write something like that for my own enjoyment if I fancied. ;)
 
Jagular said:
Jack,

You can throw out examples all day long. All of the examples you show above are examples of artists that write their own material. There is a WORLD of differnence between that and a non-artist writer trying to get a cut. That's what the Ralph Murphy stuff is about. It's a whole different standard.
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Exactly my point. If you want to make a living as a pro you need to find your niche and go with it. Some people are performers, others are writers, and often the writers can earn more than the performers. It's all about what you are comfortable with and what you are good at, but essentially it is no good being stubborn and saying that all modern music is crap (it really isn't you know) because life is too short.
 
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