Advice from Ralph Murphy-VP of ASCAP

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In the frustrating war between art and commerce, commerce wins.

Jagular,

I completely agree with you. I also agree with Aaron Cheney and Crawdad, both of whom's opinions I highly respect.

Music research, and common sense tell us that music is like language. There are rules. Those who cant speak the language are screaming in frustration because no one is listening to them. The fact is, we cant understand what you are saying (or in this case, singing)

Music research tells us that babies like to be sang to, and that they prefer consonant sounds to dissonant sounds. The structure is not only a part of our culture, its a part of our nature.
 
I have been going to our local NSAI workshops as much as possible and recently went to a workshop where Tony Arata was the keynote speaker (wrote "The Dance" recorded by Garth Brooks.) There were several other industry people at the workshop, which lasted all day.

The big message was that it is okay to break the rules, but you need to establish yourself as a songwriter before you break the rules. This relates to the standard song structures mentioned by Ralph Murphy in the article. It also applies to people who want their material recorded by popular artists. What happens is that the artists end up listening only to a few of the songs that filtered down to them through their screeners. The screeners are looking for songs that "fit the mold" so they are not going to pass on something that deviates from the norm.
 
Jagular said:
2. If you would like to make a living at songwriting, learn the rules of the game. It's like any other business. I'm a CPA. I had to learn certain things, .....


3. You can change the rules. This is not easily done and I would say that you would generally need to put a substantial amount of time into number 2 above before you can even think about this.
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Does this mean that as a CPA you do ummm ... "creative bookkeeping?"

hehehehe .... just kidding man! :) Sup Jag! long time no see! :)

- Tanlith -
 
Writers (song and otherwise) are inherently more articulate than the average person. This spills over into the "language" of music itself. As a person grows intellectually you'll see major changes in how they choose their words during conversations. It seems only natural that this would be reflected in how they choose their meter/rhyme/format and choice of chord changes throughout the songs flow.

Maynard from Tool (also famed from A Perfect Circle) comes to mind. As well as whoever it is that writes for Mudvayne... they've been around long enough to naturally evolve at their own pace into something very unique... yet some writers are already at that level and can't gain recognition because they haven't "paid their dues" so to speak.

Years ago I wrote a metal song called The Institution. We tried some unique ideas involving a kind of fusion/jazz thing that was just starting to appear around that time. Everywhere we played they (really) loved our stuff except for that one song. We had our chops down, the vocals were right on time, but I believe the audience just wasn't ready for it... I think the industry wants to stick to their "formulas" because they're afraid to try something new... remember... somewhere along the line someone is putting up a fist full of cash... would you bet all your money on a long shot? Or on the horse that hasn't lost a single race yet.

(Oh great! chickens; dogs; horses... this place is a zoo!)

Has anyone noticed this seems to be true of the movie industry as well? Use the tried and true formula to get to a place where you can do your own thing... I know this is really going to piss off some people here, but it just makes sense. I'm by no means saying don't write your own style... maybe just try to throw in a dog song for every 3-5 chicken songs you write... if you can sell a dog song then you can probably afford to record & showcase all your chicken songs at your leisure.

Holy crap! With the Canadian to US exchange that came to like $29.95... + 8% PST... and 7%GST... plus duty fees... so much for adding my 2 cents!

- Tanlith -
 
As a former vegetarian in the 70's, I will not go near the Dog or Chicken at this time.
I have tried and experienced a little bit of all of the above #1,2,#3, & #4.
In the 70's as part of a kick ass local rock band disco busters out to save the world. Playing as opening act to some big guns of the day.
In the 80's as a session player putting food on the table,club dates or whatever we "had" to do while working my own stuff in the closet.
In the 90's I started my own business totally unrelated to music, which has afforded my the resources to turn that spare room into my home studio..
Now we are in the next Millenium, finally finished the first complete CD. It is out there for the world to take or leave. If it sells enough to pay for the next CD, that's a bonus!!
I'm 45, will I ever stop writing? Maybe, but not anytime soon. Is my stuff the shyt that dreams are made of? Probably not, but the satisfaction of having something that you have created "out there" getting heard, and decent reviews from complete strangers tells me. "I don't suck" Until I decide it is time to quit, then it is time to keep on keepin' on....

I'm new here excuse me if I ramble, or if I'm in the wrong part of the forum for this rant.
 
Garry Sharp said:
:rolleyes: Good job nobody told McCartney about the "Linear melody". Just imagine "Yesterday" written in the style of the dirgey "By The Time I Get To Phoenix".
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Anybody ever notice that Rascall Flatts' "Movin' On" is pretty much just a melodic clone of "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds." I didn't notice it until somebody here pointed it out, and then it was just so totally obvious that I decided I'm going to do nothing but cop Beatles' melodies and sell them in Form #3 to an audience that will lap it up like so much milk, lol.

(I know one of the writers of that R.F. tune pretty well, so don't think I didn't email him like THE SAME DAY and give him shit about it continuously until he finally admitted the similarities on the condition that I never mention it anywhere again).

ooooops.
 
Oh, and it was Crawdad who pointed it out...hehehehe (I should look at these threads a little more closely before I post).

Holy cow, all the smart people seem to hang out here...

...I better get back to the clinic.
 
tanlith said:
Does this mean that as a CPA you do ummm ... "creative bookkeeping?"

hehehehe .... just kidding man! :) Sup Jag! long time no see! :)

- Tanlith -
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;) :D

Hey...sorry I missed your post earlier :)
 
That's almost word for word what I got from Screen Gems nearly 35 years ago when I wrote for Colgems. They were ASCAP too, the heathens.

Anyway, it's crap.

No it's not crap, if you want a number 1 song it's exactly what you must do. Of course you'll be hit by lightning and win the lottery a few times before that happens.

Write from the heart and let the chips fall where they may.
 
I write what comes from me to express who I am. However, sometimes I write to feed myself.
Ace Frehely once said "I am a artist, but I still have to pay the bills"
 
I just do it for myself and don't want to make a living at it (I like to eat and so do my wife and kid), so the formulas can go to hell. I write what makes me happy, and that's the bottom line for me. I had my touch with fame in the 80's, and a car "accident" ended that, and left a bad taste in my mouth.
I for one don't care about the standards the industry uses, because in my mind, they have been wrong for too many years.
I will write for me, and me alone. And when I can't make my own personal standards, I'll turn my guitar into a planter and start a meaningful hobby like needlepoint...
 
one of these days I'm going to read that first post in this thread. but I don't even want to write a #1 song, I'd be glad just to write a #150 song, or maybe a #49 on CMJ weekly, or the top 10 on Soundclick.com.

I can't write for any market or anyone. I can't do anything anymore for anyone if I really don't want to. I have a hard time conforming to a lot of things, so when it comes to songwriting, I can barely even perform cover songs now, and I really have to believe in my own song to perform it. I finally do have a couple of originals that I love and one of my song is actually one my favorite songs, so I'm happy just witht that. I can die now.
 
junplugged said:
one of these days I'm going to read that first post in this thread. but I don't even want to write a #1 song, I'd be glad just to write a #150 song, or maybe a #49 on CMJ weekly, or the top 10 on Soundclick.com.

I can't write for any market or anyone. I can't do anything anymore for anyone if I really don't want to. I have a hard time conforming to a lot of things, so when it comes to songwriting, I can barely even perform cover songs now, and I really have to believe in my own song to perform it. I finally do have a couple of originals that I love and one of my song is actually one my favorite songs, so I'm happy just witht that. I can die now.
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Is that song on your site? I wanna hear it!!!!
 
junplugged said:
one of these days I'm going to read that first post in this thread. but I don't even want to write a #1 song, I'd be glad just to write a #150 song, or maybe a #49 on CMJ weekly, or the top 10 on Soundclick.com.

I can't write for any market or anyone. I can't do anything anymore for anyone if I really don't want to. I have a hard time conforming to a lot of things, so when it comes to songwriting, I can barely even perform cover songs now, and I really have to believe in my own song to perform it. I finally do have a couple of originals that I love and one of my song is actually one my favorite songs, so I'm happy just witht that. I can die now.
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I never broke into the top 10 on soundclick... I got one to #14, because I posted it in the clinic and it got 82 downloads the first day. It debuted on there at #32... It dropped after 4 days and I took it down....

#1 was shit compared to mine, so I realized it was a download driven chart, and that mostly it was probably the band that posted it there and some friends downloading it like crazy to get it there, so I don't worry about the soundclick charts anymore.
My wife loves my music, and my kid sings my songs, so I too can die a happy man....
 
Rokket said:
Is that song on your site? I wanna hear it!!!!
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Recording it well enough for me to like the recording is a whole other thing. :eek:

So I haven't posted it up anywhere yet. I'm not yet even sure of how I want to produce it, so it'll take a while. There is another song that I'm working on that I've revised so much that I'm just done with it even if I do get more ideas on how to improve it. It started too long ago for me to chop it up again. That's the one I'm doin my experimenting recording. It's about 3 weeks away, as soon as I get over this cold I can do the vocals....
 
junplugged said:
Recording it well enough for me to like the recording is a whole other thing. :eek:

So I haven't posted it up anywhere yet. I'm not yet even sure of how I want to produce it, so it'll take a while. There is another song that I'm working on that I've revised so much that I'm just done with it even if I do get more ideas on how to improve it. It started too long ago for me to chop it up again. That's the one I'm doin my experimenting recording. It's about 3 weeks away, as soon as I get over this cold I can do the vocals....
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I have one that I am messing with right now that is giving me goosebumps. The lyrics are posted in the thread in here under lyrics with no title thread that I started. I have all the music done, and I added some soundbites that I got off a free site that fit it so well, you would thought they made these movies just for me to write the song....

But I want to know when your song is done. I really do want to hear it!
 
We talking about #1 hit or A record Deal, Lets not get confused here.

#1 hit means the radio has to like it, so that stmgrs will play it, the radio wants it around 3mins, and if you cant do that dont cry about not being on the radio.

Good meaning never hurts and a catchy chorus.

Then there is the public, they need to like it and request it.
Oh and you need to be black with gold teeth and have a video on mtv flashing money and saying that your gonna bang ho's and ryde low with da spinnazs.
and more gold teeth.

But a record deal can be had with original music.

THE PROBLEM IS THIS!!!!

and i know this for a fact.
The record insdustry has been taking a huge hit HUGE hit from DL's online, So the problem is this, they know they have all but lost record sales income, so they have to depend on radioplay touring, and soundtracks etc...

Making the labels more picky and less likely to sign somthing they dont think will sell to radio or soundtracks.

True Story.
 
d(-_-)b-Phones said:
We talking about #1 hit or A record Deal, Lets not get confused here.

#1 hit means the radio has to like it, so that stmgrs will play it, the radio wants it around 3mins, and if you cant do that dont cry about not being on the radio.

Good meaning never hurts and a catchy chorus.

Then there is the public, they need to like it and request it.
Oh and you need to be black with gold teeth and have a video on mtv flashing money and saying that your gonna bang ho's and ryde low with da spinnazs.
and more gold teeth.

But a record deal can be had with original music.

THE PROBLEM IS THIS!!!!

and i know this for a fact.
The record insdustry has been taking a huge hit HUGE hit from DL's online, So the problem is this, they know they have all but lost record sales income, so they have to depend on radioplay touring, and soundtracks etc...

Making the labels more picky and less likely to sign somthing they dont think will sell to radio or soundtracks.

True Story.
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Ralph Murphy is a writer's rep for ASCAP here in Nashville. That being the case he is talking, for the most part, about songs that are not written by the artist. Of course there are exceptions. Judging songs from non-artist writers compared to the songs the artist writes is a totally different beast. The non-artist writers are usually held up to a much higher standard and need to be more cognizant of the "rules".

Just to let you know where Ralph's perspective lies.
 
I see what you mean, I have never heard of him, I am signed as a Publisher for Windup Records, so i understand your concept, for some reason i thought he was talking to bands.
 
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