Advice For Vocals / Effects etc

[Jacob2096]

Hi guys,

First off I would like to say Im so glad I found this place! I have been reading all the forums for about a week or so and I thought it is time to finally join in the fun and ask some of my own noob questions

I am looking for some advice when recording vocals. I am recording hiphop/rap so there is no singing involved.

I have just purchased an Mbox2 mini and a condenser mic which seem to be working quite well, and of course I am using protools.

What I am wanting to know, is how to get the vocals to sound better. I have been messing around with d-verb and also compression and have had a bit of success getting it sounding okay-ish. (Im currently suffering from massive PC noise getting picked up by the mic so im trying to sort that out at the moment, plus trying to make a dodgy home booth )

I would like to get some idea on how to use some sort of effects on the vocals, like to make it double up, adding adlibs and things like that. I am guessing there is already posts for this somewhere but I am not really having much success searching myself.

I was reading D-verb isnt that great, so some help in that area would definitely be great. Maybe some alternate plugins someone could show me?

I would post some recording ive already done but I cant since im new.

 

[warlock110]

The signal chain for vocal is debateable but i've come out with this setup and i hope it helps a little, i usually uses this chain.

1) EQing, there's a reason why it comes 1st, you want to sort out all the frequency the right way before doing any type of effect.
2) Compression: the reason why it comes 2nd is that you do not want to put gain on unwanted frequency, so this normally goes right after EQ. Vocal compression is usually low ratio (3-4:1 at best), you want some dynamic changes here, also some may suggest a short attack/release time
3) Exciter: this is where u want to pop the vocal out, normally in a mix, the vocal tend to sit in the front (not sure about rap but i'm just gonna assume it's like that), also software like Isotope Ozone allows you to add blends such as "vintage" "room" "tube" to beef it up, i find it helpful if your preamp doesn't have a tube or is very clean/transparents, most rap vocal are pretty thick IMO. the other variation of this is the "vocal magic" plugin, it basically applies a small reverb + vintage effect to the vocal and pop it out in front of the mix.
4) Delay: this is the echo/delay/repeat stuff that u want, most people put a really dry delay at around 100-160ms to thick up the track, u can't hear it but if u turn it off u'll deffinitely have a different sound (atleast this is what people shoot for in most cases, can't hear the effect working but turning it off makes it sound bad)
5) Deesser (not sure if it's spelled right, i'm thinking it's wrong but it's around the ball park), this is sort of a compression + EQ at a very steep level to remove the pop and such in pronouciation, it helps, just don't use too much and it'll blur out too much of the "realness" of a performance
6) Maximizer: if you don't plan to have it mastered, you need some sort of maximizer, this is just to bring the noise up to be usable in regular everday music player, it's basically a compessor working at a limiter level that pull the gain up to .1 db.

7) Reverb: this is the only effect u want as an FX send to control the amount/volume, in the reverb u can also EQ the reverb of the FX send, normally for vocal it's small room, little predelay and decay, again try to make it transparent, but if u turn it off your thing will not sound as good, easier said than done though.

As for plugin there's a tons out there, i have no idea, all this stuff i got from reading different sources, i'm still trying them out.

 

[Mindset]

EQ goes before compression if your subtracting frequencies, and after compression if your adding.

I wouldn't use an Exciter either. Normally you should be able to deal with that through compression & equalization & good panning.

Preamps, that depends on what type of sound your going for & mic.

Delay = Time delays allow the delay to go with the music, making it almost "invisible" like what your describing it as. It's easy to get the exact numbers too... 60 divided by BPM X 1000 (16's)= your timed delay. divide that by 2 and get your 8's etc, depending on how tight you want it.

In hip hop/rap vocals we barely use reverb, unless your looking for that specific sound.

deesser, basically allows all frequencies to pass through, except for the highs, which are compressed and rolled off.

 

[warlock110]

EQ goes before compression if your subtracting frequencies, and after compression if your adding.

I wouldn't use an Exciter either. Normally you should be able to deal with that through compression & equalization & good panning.

Preamps, that depends on what type of sound your going for & mic.

Delay = Time delays allow the delay to go with the music, making it almost "invisible" like what your describing it as. It's easy to get the exact numbers too... 60 divided by BPM X 1000 (16's)= your timed delay. divide that by 2 and get your 8's etc, depending on how tight you want it.

In hip hop/rap vocals we barely use reverb, unless your looking for that specific sound.

deesser, basically allows all frequencies to pass through, except for the highs, which are compressed and rolled off.

i didn't know about the EQ thing before and after, thanks, i've always been told that i should never add in EQing and that it comes before compression, but here are sources that does add stuff to EQing but never state that it should done after compression. at anyrate, good thing to know.

About exiter and reverb i just wanted to point something out, assuming that the OP doesn't have the "decent' gear + a "decent" recording room, i think it's require, because the only way to pop that vocal in the front of the mix is by messing with it's dynamic, and that can get nasty after a while, i think exiter + reverb will help out with that a bit. I don't know if we uses reverb in rap music (but i guess not), i don't know anything about rap so no clue there.

 

[Jacob2096]

Wow thanks for the help guys.

Ill say that alot of what you saying is quite advanced for me since ive only been doing it for about two weeks, but once i get more into it ill be using the advice like a bible

I guess ive just gotta get my recording room nice n silent, then go from there, which has been a paid in the butt let me tell you!!!

I havent even been doing EQ. I dont really even know where the setting is!

I also want to double up on vocals, what seems to be the easiest sort of way to do that? Whether its doubling up just on one word or to do like the whole verse.

 

[Mindset]

Doubling your vocals...
That all depends on what kind of sound your looking for in yourself. Usually on any given session, excluding punch ins, there's usually 5-6 vocal takes and an adlib for my artist Weather Man, and say for Lt. Mac, I usually compress the crap out of him, but he only takes 4 total tracks, 3 mains and 1 adlib. Anyways, don't do it too much, and make it barely noticable. I myself, do 3 takes, and 2 adlibs. Easiest way to do this, is record your first take, and then go to a new track & at the same spot, and record it again the same way. for your adlibs, you could hit it at every end of every bar, or you can accompany what you say in your lyrics, or you can shout obscene words in the back ground.

I wouldn't recommend using a graphic eq, use a parametric eq instead. but yeah, just have fun with it, and when your ready to use some tools, we all here.

Wow thanks for the help guys.

Ill say that alot of what you saying is quite advanced for me since ive only been doing it for about two weeks, but once i get more into it ill be using the advice like a bible

I guess ive just gotta get my recording room nice n silent, then go from there, which has been a paid in the butt let me tell you!!!

I havent even been doing EQ. I dont really even know where the setting is!

I also want to double up on vocals, what seems to be the easiest sort of way to do that? Whether its doubling up just on one word or to do like the whole verse.

 

[warlock110]

Doubling your vocals...
That all depends on what kind of sound your looking for in yourself. Usually on any given session, excluding punch ins, there's usually 5-6 vocal takes and an adlib for my artist Weather Man, and say for Lt. Mac, I usually compress the crap out of him, but he only takes 4 total tracks, 3 mains and 1 adlib. Anyways, don't do it too much, and make it barely noticable. I myself, do 3 takes, and 2 adlibs. Easiest way to do this, is record your first take, and then go to a new track & at the same spot, and record it again the same way. for your adlibs, you could hit it at every end of every bar, or you can accompany what you say in your lyrics, or you can shout obscene words in the back ground.

I wouldn't recommend using a graphic eq, use a parametric eq instead. but yeah, just have fun with it, and when your ready to use some tools, we all here.

you can always do vocal comping, but i'm not sure if rapper does that, it kindda disturb the flow of the song and you'll need to align the dynamic/proximity to get it reconnected. If you're doing over laying tracks like such, i suggest 2-3 takes max, you'll burn out after about 30min-1 hour of recording for sure. And he's right, use a parametric EQ i find it easier, but i think most EQ works about the same, there's a huge guide on EQ and what freq takes into effect, male and female is slight different because of the different note they sing in (again not sure if rapper applies to this, but i just read an article on wiki that claims 50cents is a tenor, very interesting facts).

 

[Jacob2096]

Okay great more awesome advice.

So when you mean do about 2 or 3 takes, you mean take them 3 times and keep them together, not just choose the best one correct?


So basically, do one , then do them a few more times on new lines to double or triple it up?

Im guessing parametric is a hardware based eq? I wont be using that for now, as I only have an mbox2 mini, and with all the car fines and defects ive had as of late im broke!

 

[Mindset]

Parametric EQ"s are both hardware based and software. You should have one that came with the mbox. Graphic EQ's have set frequencies. You don't have as much control. Parametric EQ's allow you to change what frequency you want to effect, the gain/reduction & the q factor. Equalize offending frequencies, don't base it on an assumption. but yeah, one could assume that that a kick isn't sitting at 16khz... or that would be some very weird music....

Usually there's a lot more that I do to mix stuff down. but for starters, thats a beginning step. I usually lace down a few tracks of the same thing, and bring one center, maybe cut anything under 80 or 100hz for the center, panning the other 2 & adlibs, usually depending on artist, I'll lower down the others to not so noticable levels. eq stuff, compression here and there. a lot more steps but for now take small ones.

My artists have to know what material they doing, and know the material itself, before I book studio time. They tend to drop a whole track in less than an hour, giving me a good chunk of time to mix stuff down.

 

[Jacob2096]

Thanks mindset, This will really help me out alot.

Keep in mind i am a complete beginner. For work i work with computers and databases etc but nothing to do with sound, which is a whole different ballpark.

So my eq would be my input volume on my mbox? Sorry if this is a ridiculous question but you have to start somewhere!

No one in my area that I know records music, especially hiphop. Its sorta underground in Australia and sort of "frowned upon", especially if your writing your own stuff and "rapping" as such.

What i have been doing is just freestyling over the track im doing to try and get the sound right, and turning it up or down on the input of the mbox before I do a record. I am basically trying to get it as loud as i can without sounding bad, so then i can edit it later once it's been recorded. Does that sound like sort of the right thing to do?

Sorry for all the complete noob questions but I want to make sure I start out right, so I dont make bad habits early!

 

[warlock110]

Thanks mindset, This will really help me out alot.

Keep in mind i am a complete beginner. For work i work with computers and databases etc but nothing to do with sound, which is a whole different ballpark.

So my eq would be my input volume on my mbox? Sorry if this is a ridiculous question but you have to start somewhere!

No one in my area that I know records music, especially hiphop. Its sorta underground in Australia and sort of "frowned upon", especially if your writing your own stuff and "rapping" as such.

What i have been doing is just freestyling over the track im doing to try and get the sound right, and turning it up or down on the input of the mbox before I do a record. I am basically trying to get it as loud as i can without sounding bad, so then i can edit it later once it's been recorded. Does that sound like sort of the right thing to do?

Sorry for all the complete noob questions but I want to make sure I start out right, so I dont make bad habits early!

I think when you record in, look at the "chart" on the side of your DAW,or those metter things on your amp it tells you how loud, i do belive it clips at 0db, most people prefer to record in at -6 peaks or even lower (the loudest parts), the reason is i belive if u hit 0 db it clips. After u done your recording and mixing, the mastering process will put gain on the audio file and bump it back up to 0 db to be use in everyday audio system.

 

[Jacob2096]

thanks warlock.

I have alot to learn dont i! Most of the stuff you guys have been telling me barely makes sense but ill get there in the end. When I actually do my next recording ill have to post it on here so you can see how your advice got used!

 

[Trumpspade]

Parametric EQ"s are both hardware based and software. You should have one that came with the mbox. Graphic EQ's have set frequencies. You don't have as much control. Parametric EQ's allow you to change what frequency you want to effect, the gain/reduction & the q factor. Equalize offending frequencies, don't base it on an assumption. but yeah, one could assume that that a kick isn't sitting at 16khz... or that would be some very weird music....

Usually there's a lot more that I do to mix stuff down. but for starters, thats a beginning step. I usually lace down a few tracks of the same thing, and bring one center, maybe cut anything under 80 or 100hz for the center, panning the other 2 & adlibs, usually depending on artist, I'll lower down the others to not so noticable levels. eq stuff, compression here and there. a lot more steps but for now take small ones.

My artists have to know what material they doing, and know the material itself, before I book studio time. They tend to drop a whole track in less than an hour, giving me a good chunk of time to mix stuff down.

My Mayne!!!!!!

 

[kojdogg]

EQ goes before compression if your subtracting frequencies, and after compression if your adding.
...

deesser, basically allows all frequencies to pass through, except for the highs, which are compressed and rolled off.

a few points i would add to this. eq is basically frequency specific gain control. if you put eq before compression, gain differences in eq areas will effect how the compressor operates. in other words, if you boost the bass frequencies before you comrpess, the increase in gain may cause the behavior of the compressor to work differently than it would if you don't. the same would be true of cutting frequencies. for vocals, using a high pass filter to reduce rumble is often a very good idea and much of the stuff down there is undesirable in the final product. there are multi-band compressors where you can compress different frequencies to different levels, though it doesn't sound like you're talking about that here.

deesser doesn't always just indiscriminately roll off highs, it often functions as a narrow q (frequency range-specific) compressor. kind of a "surgical tool."

exciters are pretty much a type of distortion. a little can sound ok to give a track some "grit" (that's highly subjective). too much will often sound terrible-- especially if it's layered on many tracks.

i would put a priority on getting a clean recorded signal (don't run anything too hot into the m-box-- digital distortion sounds terrible) and experimenting with mic position to get the cleanest sound possible (mic a little bit above or below your mic, tilted towards you, or tilted away from you, etc.). if your mic is cardioid, then keep in mind that you can minimize the leakage from your computer by aiming the "null" of the mic's pickup pattern towards the computer (for a cardioid mic, this usually means recording while facing the computer and far enough away).

 

[Jacob2096]

Thanks for the help kpjdogg.

Yeah i think that my first step is to get a clear and clean sound into the mic before anything. I mean there is no point in editing that originally sounds crap!

I think i may need to buy a mac mini or a laptop, because my pc is just way too loud and I cant really escape the noise in the room im recording

 

[kojdogg]

can you put the computer in a closet and run cables out to the main room for the monitor, keyboard and mouse? could you get something like a tranzport to remotely start recording and record in a different room?
also i found the auralex aural xpander kit to be useful for getting some isolation from room sources-- it has a set of baffles which provide some isolation for tracking and it's pretty inexpensive (i think i paid about $40 shipped new on ebay). i have a reflexion filter now which definitely works better, but that sucker's a bit expensive. some say that the real-traps dot com "portable vocal booth" is a better product and does the same thing. you could make a set of gobos with some owens-corning 703 (there are now several thousands of threads on various messageboards including this one on this topic). modtraps dot com has some interesting pre-made 703 baffles that can be mounted on mic stands.

 

[Jacob2096]

Yeah I have actually been thinking of putting it in my closet. I wouldn't think it would be enough though! Yeah i know it sounds crazy

I am thinking about buying a Mac Mini and using that just to record.

I have actually been using my very small coat closet for a "booth" as such. I have been opening the door and hanging up blankets over it which muffle the computer and also stop sound rebounding. I mean its pretty crap but its all I got for now!

Since I have such limited space I am trying to come up with some ideas on what I can do.

Ill have to have a look into those things that you mention, and see if I can get them in Australia.

 

[Adan]

I've got some free Pro Tools tutorials on the multi platinum pro tools website, click on the downloads link, and we cover some basic vocal editing in one of them.

 

[slidey]

EQ goes before compression if your subtracting frequencies, and after compression if your adding.

I wouldn't use an Exciter either. Normally you should be able to deal with that through compression & equalization & good panning.QUOTE]

EQ tip is gonna be fun. Why didn't I think of that???....would you use 2 EQ plugins then?? one before comp & one after

& I agree with the exciter. I have an outboard that I've tried a couple of times but it sounded OK before & on top I got a big whack of hiss

 

[Mindset]

That depends on what kind of sound I'm aiming for. Usually I use as many tools I need to make it sound right. Usually I cut unwanted frequencies using EQ before compression, so that the compressor doesn't start bringing those frequencies up, bringing noise along with it. Then after compression, I usually "fine tune" whatever it may be with another eq etc. Of course, in this world, every situation may, or may not call for something different, if your looking for something different.

EQ goes before compression if your subtracting frequencies, and after compression if your adding.

I wouldn't use an Exciter either. Normally you should be able to deal with that through compression & equalization & good panning.QUOTE]

EQ tip is gonna be fun. Why didn't I think of that???....would you use 2 EQ plugins then?? one before comp & one after

& I agree with the exciter. I have an outboard that I've tried a couple of times but it sounded OK before & on top I got a big whack of hiss