Acoustics and Wood

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TelePaul

TelePaul

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Can someone like Muttley or Light give me a bit of a breakdown of the primary characteristics of the common acoustic tonewoods? Like cedar, spruce, mahogany, maple (is maple even used?) and how they affect the sound of a guitar?
 
Wow you don't want much do you.:D

Can't be done in a simple post as I think you know and anything I post from 30n years of observations building is just that, observations. The whole thing would have to have huge caveats attached and everything has to be qualified with a heap of other considerations. Having said that, if I take your original request and emphasise your choice of word "primary characteristics" you can have a stab at it. Although I can see a bit of a bun fight coming after.;)

I'm about to go eat, I'll have a stab at it after that. Pull up a seat crack open a beer and prepare for a long thread.:D

I guess the other consideration is to ask you how involved you want to get and do you have a particular guitar or sound in mind?
 
Seeing as he asked me this same question the other day, I think I know what he's getting at. First off, he's referring to flat top, steel string guitars. Secondly, he means the soundboard/top of the instrument. Thirdly, he's looking at it from the point of view of recording - in other words, which woods will give a brighter sound, better volume, etc...

I'd imagine it gets complicated, though, especially when you factor in things like body size/shape, bracing patterns, etc.
 
Yes yes yes all these things I must know! Also, why does a guitar have a sound hole if the sound comes from the vibrating top?
 
Yes yes yes all these things I must know! Also, why does a guitar have a sound hole if the sound comes from the vibrating top?

So when you flip it over and shake it, there's a place for your pick to fall out!
 
Yes yes yes all these things I must know! Also, why does a guitar have a sound hole if the sound comes from the vibrating top?
That ones easy. It allows the top to move freely. If the enclosure was sealed the top wouldn't move nearly as much as the air inside would have to compress and expand on itself. The soundhole is actually quite badly named as very little air and as a result sound is moved away from the area of the sound hole. As the top moves out air is sucked into the body, as it moves back in air is pushed back in. The resulting sound wave has very little power or velocity. In front of the soundboard itself the board acts to push the sound wave out wards.

So are you interested in the materials and mechanics of the top specifically or the whole body? Its all important. I'm just trying to break it down to a more concise subject area.
 
So when you flip it over and shake it, there's a place for your pick to fall out!

That to, but if it wasn't there in the first place how's it going to get in there? Haven't lost one in a solid body yet.:cool:
 
You're right muttley I should be much more specific. I recorded a track yesterday and I hated the guitarist's sound. You can check it her eif you like, "Done me Wrong" www.soundclick.com/glasshouserecordings

I'm wondering what makes some guitars bright and crisp (spruce?) others warm (cedar?), others boomy (mahogany?). I'm also wondering if a cedar top is prized because they offer 'better projection', a fact I read elsewhere which I'd like verified.
 
That to, but if it wasn't there in the first place how's it going to get in there? Haven't lost one in a solid body yet.:cool:

I know...

I was trying to create a conundrum of faulty logic... :)
 
Seeing as he asked me this same question the other day, I think I know what he's getting at. First off, he's referring to flat top, steel string guitars. Secondly, he means the soundboard/top of the instrument. Thirdly, he's looking at it from the point of view of recording - in other words, which woods will give a brighter sound, better volume, etc...

I'd imagine it gets complicated, though, especially when you factor in things like body size/shape, bracing patterns, etc.

Ok I'll try and deal with that one first.

Keep in mind ALL this is dependant on just about everything else on the instrument, body size, back and side wood, neck timber, bracing style, soundhole size and placement (as mentioned), bridge size mass and timber, strings, the list goes on.

All things being equal then we can make some observations but first more caveats. As I've often said no two pieces of timber are the same even two pieces cut from a lump of wood that are right next to each other in the billit. Timber is an anistropic material, it's properties vary in all directions and are as unique as a fingerprint. One good way to look at it is that a specific timber species will have properties within a range and the resulting sound characteristics will form a spectrum. Its that spectrum that we can examine and use to our advantage when shooting for a certain sound.

The most common belly timbers used historically throughout history and today would be spruce, cedar, and to a smaller degree, cyprus and willow. Not used much these days on acoustics, but used for early fiddles and harp soundboards. I'll break down the different types within this classification in a bit but first why choose from a limited range of timbers and why don't we use others?

Acoustically the top has to have good strength to weight ratiois, or more correctly stiffness to mass ratio. We need a top that is fairly light so that the limited energy in the string can be efficiently used. That energy has to move the top and a lighter top needs less energy to start vibrating and less to change the frequency at which it vibrates. It also has to be fairly rigid to avoid collapsing. Bracing helps both these things and also contributes greatly to the way sound moves around the soundboard.

Sound waves in spruce for example travel faster and more effectively than many other timbers but only along the grain. It doesn't propagate well across the grain. Bracing helps overcome this as well. Spruce and cedar have proved to be excellent for the task.

OK onto types of spruce, but first a note on talking about timber. It is always best to describe timber in terms of it's botanical classification if you want to be specific. For the purpose of this debate I'll just deal with the common names we use. If I'm ordering any timber I'll qualify it with a botanical name, the same timber can have different names in different countries and the same name can be used in different countries.

Commonly three types of spruce are used in instrument construction. European, German, Italian, Carpathian, Swiss spruce all the same but grown in different regions (picea abies), Englemann spruce (Picea engelmannii) and Sitka spruce (Picea sitchensis). Both the latter are also grown in many regions but don't have quite the same range of confusing names. The quality and suitability do vary though as with all of them.

Cedar (Cedrus) is kind of cedar, and cyprus is also a cedar. You don't have the same range of cedars used. Cedar is closely related to the picea or spruce family.

So finally what do the sound like?

The most prized for years would be the European, it's that that started the whole thing off Strad used it and it's the most expensive today. Of them all it has a rich well rounded sound that is full and DOES improve with age. It is what all others are measured against. If you look at most handmade guitars from respected luthiers that would be the top of the range in most cases. Talking tone is hard but to my ears it is full, rich and almost bell like with good separation and projects excellently. We shall use it as the bench mark.

Engelmann has a good deep sound as well a bit less seperation but full none the less and sometimes lacking in highs. Commonly it does not improve with age, (neither does Sitka or cedar. Some say it does, trust me they don't, the sound you have once it's settled in is what you get).

Sitka spruce is the brightest and punchiest of the three with a good seperation and mid and top end. If anything it lacks at the low end and can be a little unresponsive to a light touch.

Cedar is the mellow one of the bunch. Many people pass it by as a poor mans timber. It doesn't have the punch and bite of the spruces but it makes an excellent instrument, especially for those Irish bazoukis, mandolas etc. Also good for shorter scale 12 fret guitars. They can be really sweet. The sound as a whole is mellow and even and it doesn't have the dynamic of the spruces.

I hate describing tone of timbers you need to get out and listen to a LOT of these woods to get the idea that it is both a tonal spectrum and you can't pigeon hole them and also to understand that there is so much else going on that it is hard to pin it down to one thing. You can get a feel for it the more you listen to them though. It's a bit like fine Scotch. The first time you taste it you think "yeh it's a whiskey", its not until you have experience and develop a palette that the subtle side of each comes out. At the end of the day though it is still a whiskey and no better or worse than an Irish or a Bourbon. Just different.

Did I mention this is all only general and it depends on everything else as well.:D

Pick the bones out of that.
 
I'm also wondering if a cedar top is prized because they offer 'better projection', a fact I read elsewhere which I'd like verified.
Wouldn't agree with that as a general statement at all. Where did you read it?
 
You're right muttley I should be much more specific. I recorded a track yesterday and I hated the guitarist's sound. You can check it her eif you like, "Done me Wrong" www.soundclick.com/glasshouserecordings

It's impossible to really judge the sound of that guitar as the processing makes it sound as if he's playing it at the bottom of a well. Which brings me onto the subject of recording a decent acoustic guitar. No wait a minute, thats why I came here in the first place, I can't do that very well at all yet.:eek:

Thats an art in itself.

Playing is good though and she has a nice voice. There is potential there for a good recording. Or so It seems to me.
 
It's impossible to really judge the sound of that guitar as the processing makes it sound as if he's playing it at the bottom of a well. Which brings me onto the subject of recording a decent acoustic guitar. No wait a minute, thats why I came here in the first place, I can't do that very well at all yet.:eek:

Thats an art in itself.

Playing is good though and she has a nice voice. There is potential there for a good recording. Or so It seems to me.

The playing isn't good, it's just...ugh. There's no tope end. And that's how it sounded in the room, no clarity. There's no processing. That's what ya get for picking with the pads of your fingers.
 
Some tool on another forum. Thanks Mutt, that's what I was getting at.
It does project very well in the situations I described, irish fiddle tunes on various smaller bodied or shorter scale for single note stuff or comping behind a fiddle. Doesn't project any better it just well suited to that sort of stuff to my mind and ears. For projection look to European spruce first then Sitka for punch and zing. YMMV.
 
There's no processing. That's what ya get for picking with the pads of your fingers.
What room? St Pauls Cathedral.:eek: It just a mess of deep reverb and sounds almost underwater or is that my crap laptop speakers..:eek:

Still like the voice and and the song though and the playing isn't that shabby. I'm a great believer in listening for the good air.;)
 
Thank you Muttley for taking up this thread. I hope it lives long enough to get into some depth.

The most common belly timbers used historically throughout history and today would be spruce, cedar, and to a smaller degree, cyprus and willow. Not used much these days on acoustics, but used for early fiddles and harp soundboards. I'll break down the different types within this classification in a bit but first why choose from a limited range of timbers and why don't we use others?

I would add Birch, Mahogany, and, to a lesser extent, Koa to this list.

Commonly three types of spruce are used in instrument construction. European, German, Italian, Carpathian, Swiss spruce all the same but grown in different regions (picea abies), Englemann spruce (Picea engelmannii) and Sitka spruce (Picea sitchensis). Both the latter are also grown in many regions but don't have quite the same range of confusing names. The quality and suitability do vary though as with all of them.


I would add Adirondack Spruce (Picea Rubra) to this list. This species is enjoying considerable popularity on this side of the drink. I would be very interested in your take on this species in particular.

Engelmann has a good deep sound as well a bit less seperation but full none the less and sometimes lacking in highs. Commonly it does not improve with age, (neither does Sitka or cedar. Some say it does, trust me they don't, the sound you have once it's settled in is what you get).

I'm not so sure I agree with you on this one, especially with regards to Sitka. If you are right then it can take Sitka quite some time to "settle in"

Cedar is the mellow one of the bunch. Many people pass it by as a poor mans timber. It doesn't have the punch and bite of the spruces but it makes an excellent instrument, especially for those Irish bazoukis, mandolas etc. Also good for shorter scale 12 fret guitars. They can be really sweet. The sound as a whole is mellow and even and it doesn't have the dynamic of the spruces.

I would add that Cedar often responds very badly to a heavy handed attack. It's probably not a flatpicker's first choice.

I hate describing tone of timbers you need to get out and listen to a LOT of these woods to get the idea that it is both a tonal spectrum and you can't pigeon hole them and also to understand that there is so much else going on that it is hard to pin it down to one thing. You can get a feel for it the more you listen to them though. It's a bit like fine Scotch. The first time you taste it you think "yeh it's a whiskey", its not until you have experience and develop a palette that the subtle side of each comes out. At the end of the day though it is still a whiskey and no better or worse than an Irish or a Bourbon. Just different.

Did I mention this is all only general and it depends on everything else as well.:D.

+10 on that one. When you go here you always have to keep repeating that exceptions are unexceptional.

Pick the bones out of that.

There are no bones to pick. Try again.
 
Thank you Muttley for taking up this thread. I hope it lives long enough to get into some depth.



I would add Birch, Mahogany, and, to a lesser extent, Koa to this list.

Yeh I tried to limit the load to those that you can commonly find on plucked instruments. Comments on these ones.

Birch I would never use. It's dead. Over 90% of the worlds birch production goes into plywood. Ther is a reason for that.:D I have no experience building with it though.

Mahogany, can be used with success. I didn't touch on it because there is Mahogany and "mahogany. Describing mahogany species is a nightmare. One you definitely need to specify a botanical name. Having said that some of the Martins and to a lesser extent Gibsons that have used it have turned out to be full of character. I wouldn't like to define a general sound quality to it as a top wood though as it hasn't been widely employed and the variety of timber species and quality limit objective judgment. If you like the sound of a mahogany top look into cedar as a better option.

Koa, again has been limited in it's use. Hawaiian type stuff and more rescently some archtops and a few flat tops are appearing. Thejury is out on that one for me as well.

I would add Adirondack Spruce (Picea Rubra) to this list. This species is enjoying considerable popularity on this side of the drink. I would be very interested in your take on this species in particular.

I've not had any experience building with it so wouldn't comment. I know it's becoming more widely used. So no comment. I know that here at least some of the Carpathian spruce is closer to Adirondack. The stuff isn't even Picea Abies and I've yet to find out what it is. I know it's being sold to the Americas as Adirondack. Thats an example of the vagaries of classification.
I'm not so sure I agree with you on this one, especially with regards to Sitka. If you are right then it can take Sitka quite some time to "settle in"

What don't you agree with. I've built a lot with it and also used it for bracing quite a bit. It's bright and full of "zing" as a rule. Once played in it doesn't mellow or change.

I would add that Cedar often responds very badly to a heavy handed attack. It's probably not a flatpicker's first choice.
Cedar just has a differnt sound thats all. It's still a popular choice on some Flamenco's. They hit them pretty hard.;) I wouldn't put it on a flatpickers bluegrass guitar but as I said it has it's place on many other flatpickers instruments, especially for celtic stuff.

+10 on that one. When you go here you always have to keep repeating that exceptions are unexceptional.

I was thinking about this today. Maybe Telepaul should give a few soundclips that you do like and I can point you at a combination that might be wrth hunting out and others can suggest recording techniques. Both are important to the final recorded sound.
 
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