Acoustic Treatment Advice

WATYF

WATYF

...happier than you.
OK. My brother is putting a studio in his basement. We need advice on acoustic treatment. Any ideas or suggestions you can offer will be greatly appreciated. We're looking at different diffuser designs and we've heard about something called slot resonators that we're gonna check in to... we're prolly gonna use gobos to partition the recording area, but how to treat the control room is a major consideration at the moment... we haven't really got a plan of attack yet, so the sky's the limit.


Here's a few shots of the studio construction and also a little layout sketch.


basement01.jpg


basement02.jpg


basement03.jpg


floorplan1.jpg



WATYF
 
I think you better address some other things first. From the look of it, I'd venture to guess you haven't researched studio construction in depth. My first impression is your iso wall between control room and studio leaves a lot to be desired, and no amount of treatment will help once you start recording. Monitoring with sound leakage between the spaces will seriously flaw your decisions while recording. With out knowing what your planning on in terms of wall sheithing, and the type music you are planning on recording, its just my opinion, but I really think you need to stop for a moment and do a little research. Treatment is one thing, but initial design incorporating necessary construction and materials is far more important at this stage. Otherwise your flying by the seat of your pants, which, in studio design especially, can waste a lot of time and money.
fitZ:)
 
Hi WATYF,
I'm hoping that the pix are showing the stage you're at now. I think the space you have is great, but if you're still in the studding stage, may I make a suggestion. Since you have enough area to work with, I think you should build another wall between the CR and the studio room. I noticed on your plans that you stated it's a double wall, but from the pics it looks like a single wall. Don't get double layered confused with double wall. It would help you immensely in the long run to have two separate walls between the studio and ANY other rooms. If money becomes an issue, at least try to do it between the two main rooms. If you have two walls with a gap between them it'll increase your STC rating quite a bit. Unfortunately, it adds to the expense (more studs, more sheetrock, another piece of glass) and that could be a hindrance. Believe me...I know how much it eats the wallet! :-) Check out my thread at New Studio Construction and you'll get an idea of where I'm at so far. Fitz may have the right idea as far as you guys doing a bit more research, but to me it looks like you're heading in the right direction. It just pays to read as much as possible. You'd be amazed how much information is available and how much there is to learn! Geez, if I was willing to sell all the books I bought, I could probably buy the carpeting that I need! lol Bear in mind, I'm only talking from MY studio building experience. Since mine isn't complete yet, I honestly don't know how it's gonna sound, but I can't worry about that till it's done.

As far as acoustic treatment, there are basic packages available that may fit the bill, but you won't know what your room needs until it's built. Before that, you'll only be guessing. Treating my rooms is the last thing on my list to do since it won't matter until the gear is in, the rooms are completely finished, and I know what I have to deal with. If I figured out how to treat my rooms NOW (which are bright and reverb-y at the moment), I'd be defeating the results as soon as the carpet went in, the furniture went in, the racks went in, etc. Everything you add will change the sound.

I could be on the totally wrong path here. You may not have wanted to know this at all. I may not even be right! (But I hope those who know will help me out if I'm not).

I'm behind ya, bud. I know what you're going through and I wish you the best. Please keep us posted as to your progress.
Rick
 
Hello again. Say guys, I didn't mean to rain on anyones parade. But I saw the same thing you did Rick. And not only that. Look, it doesn't make any sense to build a double wall thats attatched at both ends to walls that connects the two togeather. That negates any benifit the double wall offers. Same with the ceiling. Structural transmission simply flanks through the connecting structures.
What would really help is to use a double wall, but install Resiliant Channel EVERYWHERE in the Control Room. All four walls, and ceiling. RC is NOT expensisve, but requires ABSOLUTE precision when fastening sheetrock. One or two screws going through the sheetrock, the RC and THEN going into a stud can totally negate the benifits of the RC. It MUST be done correctly or you waste your time and money. For $75 in RC, you can isolate the room, except for the floor. For that, there are other alternatives, but they are not exactly cheap. But for the most part, this by far would be the best investment you could make. And as far as the sheetrock is concerned,
at least in the control room, I would use one layer of 5/8" laid vertical on the RC. Then a layer of 1/2" fastened to the first layer via LAMINATING GRABBERS but this layer is HORIZONTAL. These are screws designed for fastening one layer or rock to another. When fastening the sheetrock, mark each stud location, so you KNOW where they are. No guessing. Fasten 2" on each side of the stud. Also remember to caulk every single joint. And then there is the electrical outlets. And the HVAC registers. And the door jamb/floor/cieling connections. And lighting...... Another is caulking. Acoustical caulking. EVERY SINGLE PLACE, that air can move through, it will, because sound is pressure. Even a 1/64th hole. Do not scrimp. Every stud, every joint in the sheetrock, every door jamb, threshold, electrical box....seals on the doors. And what about the doors? And jambs. What are you using. Every single item can be considered a WEAK LINK.

There are so many details, too many to address in one post here. Hence my suggestion to research. The best place I know of to learn the details is the construction forum on John Sayers Recording Studio Design site. But the server is down right now. I'll post the URL as soon as its up. In the mean time, do a search here on RC. And you should get so many threads it will take a month to read. But let me ask this.

One other thing precludes all this talk. That is HVAC. What is your plan. This may completely negate all other prioritys at the moment. Address this one first. If you really want information, you need to reciprocate by giving the bbs as much info as you can. Thats how you get the best back.

There are other things to help too. For amps, and drums in the studio, float platforms on neoprene. That will help reduce transmission through the slab. At least use a couple of layers of carpet padding and a layer of ply between them. Then lay the platform on that.

I'm no expert in this stuff, but there are tons of things to consider, and everyone has thier own idea and opinion. Research will weed out the bad ones. Well, thats all I have time for here. Hope this little bit helps for the moment. BTW, Rick is right, NICE SPACE.

fitZ
 
Hi guys... thanks a bunch for the feedback... and sorry that my initial description was so misleading...

We just started framing, so the pics are not a good representation of the design. We are definitely not just using a single layered (or even a double-layered) wall between the CR and the Studio. The front wall of the CR will be a double wall. We'll have sheetrock followed by insulation followed by particle board and then a 2" (or so) space and then another wall of the same materials. The insulation will be R30.

There will be a quadruple paned window in the wall. Each "layer" will have its own double paned glass window, which we intend to have on a slight downward angle. (slanted forward into the CR, maybe?)

HVAC is not an issue in this environment. We only have two vents in the entire basement, and they will be treated accordingly.



I hope that gives you a better idea of what we're doing here. I appreciate the suggestions, and honestly, this is part of our research, so any input is welcome.


I'd like to know more about that "Resiliant Channel" stuff. That sounds like something we would want to look into (to isolate the CR more).

Also, should we be using some other type of insulation (other than R30) such as Rockwool (something we've heard about).

...and should we use something other than particle board (like 3/4" plywood or some other material).



The main question we had (for this thread at least) was acoustic treatment. Once we've chosen the right materials and framed and isolated the CR and caulked the entire basement to death :p then we need some ideas on how to treat the CR. So input on that is also welcome.


Thanks again for the help.


WATYF
 
WATYF said:
..I'd like to know more about that "Resiliant Channel" stuff. That sounds like something we would want to look into (to isolate the CR more).


WATYF
Click to expand...

Resiliant Channel is a long metal strip that will flex some. The idea is the screw the drywall to that, while that being screwed into the studs. This keeps the drywall from touching the studs directly and in effect giving more isolation.

WATYF said:
[BAlso, should we be using some other type of insulation (other than R30) such as Rockwool (something we've heard about).

WATYF [/B]
Click to expand...

the r-30 insulation is just as good for behind the drywall. The
rigid stuff and Rockwool is better to use for deadening direct sound. As in a surface that will remain open for the sound to directly hit.

WATYF said:
[B

...and should we use something other than particle board (like 3/4" plywood or some other material).
WATYF [/B]
Click to expand...

That should be find but what would be the main goal? Depending on how much isolation you could use that in addition to some more drywall.

WATYF said:

The main question we had (for this thread at least) was acoustic treatment. Once we've chosen the right materials and framed and isolated the CR and caulked the entire basement to death :p then we need some ideas on how to treat the CR. So input on that is also welcome.
WATYF
Click to expand...

I'm sure everyone would agree that it would probably be best to focus on sound isolation and getting that right first, then moving on to how to deal with the sound.

Good Luck!!

Ron
 
I see a few fallacies you're buying into that will cost you $$$ and give you problems - #1, your absolute best use of materials is to have two, and ONLY two, centers of mass between any two areas you're trying to isolate. YOu mentioned quadruple pane glase - bad idea. Your isolation will suffer several dB over using just two heavy (but different thickness) panes of glass.

Resilient channel - forget it, unless you're using a SINGLE frame with wallboard on BOTH sides. Using separate frames, with multi-layer paneling ONLY on the outer side of each, and lightly filled with fluffy fiberglas, is your best use of materials. Separate frames negate the need for resilient channel, and actually improve bass TL by about 3 dB over resilient channel. OVerall STC using separate frames beats RC by 3-9 dB, depending on whether the RC is on straight or staggered studs.

Here's an example of different constructions, with their different lab-tested STC ratings - note that the 40 dB wall and the 63 dB wall have exactly the same materials used.!!?! That's what I mean by efficient use of materials... Steve
 

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Thanks for the heads up... we will prolly change our strategy after looking into that.

btw... are you the same person who's been replying to my brother's thread on the RP?


WATYF
 
Rick, it looks to me like that chase wall is load bearing but still needs to be decoupled - decoupling doesn't always mean best TL at all frequencies or best STC, but it would mean less flanking, which in turn would improve STC of the assembly.

Because that's a load bearing wall, it would be physically stronger if both sides of the studs were clad, and I think that's why it was done that way. They've opted to use RC on one side to improve decoupling, and although I don't have any specific TESTED examples to prove it, I don't think it would test as good as the same construction but with all the layers of wallboard on the outside of their respective frames.

If you look at the diagram, they are decoupling the entire structure from top to bottom and that's what I think they mean when they say "greatest degree of decoupling" - The wall structure itself may not be the highest STC it can be, but will perform better structurally than walls built strictly for sound control.

That's what I think they intended there - USG isn't always totally forthcoming in their descriptions, but that's what I get out of that section -

BTW, of course it's confusing - soundproofing is just acoustics for the insides of walls... :=)
 
Sheetrock/ linsulation suppliers. But don't rush right into this, as Steve is better informed than I about this. But lets see what the deal is.

Hey Steve, so thats your final word on this? What about the ceiling, and the other three walls in the control room? I believe you, but still, have you considered that the double wall is STILL tied togeather at the ends, via other walls? I was under the impression that this was a DIRECT connection between the two, not to mention the ceiling? I just thought the cheapest way to decouple the two would be RC. And actually, according to that article(I think?) the RC should be on the source side, which to my way of thinking would be the studio, correct? But I was thinking in terms of $, since the control room was the smaller of the two. Anyway, like I said, I'm no expert.:rolleyes: But GEEEEEEEZUS, all this time and I been drawing details with this scenario....damn, where did I get that? OH!>>>>>.I know. Like Arnold says..."I'll be back":D
fitZ
 
Sorry guise, it's 1:30 AM and I gotta crash for now - I'll start here tomorrow night... Steve
 
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