Acoustic Guitar Tracking Mic Placement

J

jmcelroy

New member
Here's a question with somewhat of a long stetup:

I recently spent some time researching mic placement and choice for recording acoustic guitar. For the record: I have a decent little all-wood Guild and I track in an untreated room in a suburban town home. I am most interested in grunge-era rock-intro sounding acoustic tracks: heavily processed, dark, and slick. Think Nirvana, Alice in Chains (Sap, Jar of Flies).

The three mic placement techniques that I've seen most frequently on the internet are the following:

1) Mic at the 12th fret 3-6 inches away
2) Mic at the bridge (distance ?)
3) Mic above the guitar, in line front-to-back with the face and left-to-right with the bridge (distance?)

People fortunate enough to have two nice-sounding mics can combine these to make interesting stereo recordings. In order to minimize destructive interference the mics should be at least 3 times as far apart as they are from the instrument. Condensers are suggested.

OK, getting to my questions. I currently have two condensers: an Audio-Technica ATM33a and a Rode NTK. I am going go buy a Shure SM81 next weekend. Starting this afternoon I am going to experiment with these mic placements in my studio. My 4 questions are:

How close do I need to mic to hide my untreated room sound?
How much is the sound going to vary as I shift my position?
Should I expect to compress these tracks afterwards to get a nice, slick sound that sits in the background?
Could someone provide a general sanity check here?

I tend to shift around when I play, even if I try not to. Also, in order to hear the differences in mic placements (sweet spot, etc) I have to listen to each track which requires that I move over the the keyboard and fiddle around for a bit with the computer. There's almost no chance that when I get back into playing position I'll be able to get into exactly the same spot.

Thanks for any and all advice!
 
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i think you have the right idea. you just got to mess with different things. i sometimes don't record with two, but just one mic about 12 inches from the bridge of the guitar and then clone that track and add about a 2ms delay on the second track and that gives it a bigger sound. Also i know the unplugged alice in chains stuff was actually DIed, but i don't particularly like that sound on those recording, but if that's what you're going for i know that's how they did it. di will also take away the room factors.

as far as tracking in untreated rooms goes it's all very variable. sometimes recording in untreated rooms sound pretty damn decent other times it's horrible. it depends. recoding a tonally great sounding track is usually dumb luck when it's not painstakingly thought out and considered. i've found that the room is the most important part when trying to find good tone. unless you DI.
 
greyharmonix said:
i think you have the right idea. you just got to mess with different things.
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Cool. Thanks.

greyharmonix said:
... one mic about 12 inches from the bridge of the guitar and then clone that track and add about a 2ms delay on the second track...
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I'll give that one a shot too. I'm guessing I'll end up with just one mic that sounds good.

greyharmonix said:
Also i know the unplugged alice in chains stuff was actually DIed, but i don't particularly like that sound on those recording, but if that's what you're going for i know that's how they did it. di will also take away the room factors.
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Does this sound DIed to you? i don't have the ears to tell.

http://www.last.fm/music/Alice+in+Chains/_/Nutshell?autostart
http://www.last.fm/music/Alice+in+Chains/_/Brother?autostart

Thanks!!
 
jmcelroy said:
How close do I need to mic to hide my untreated room sound?
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There is no one-size-fits all answer to this question, it depends on your playing technique, the mic type and setup and the characteristics of your untreated room (the funny thing about untreated rooms is that no two of them sound the same; that's why we treat them ;) ).

But *in general*, as long as you play at a fairly standard and regular volume, as long as you are close-miking and the mic is a distance from the body that is less than the smallest measured dimension of the body (usually it's depth), I wouldn't worry too much about the room effects. Of course, if you live in a tiled bathroom, all bets are off. :) The further away from the body - and especially the bridge - the mre the effects of the room.
jmcelroy said:
How much is the sound going to vary as I shift my position?
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Again, there are too many variables to give a single answer to that question. Here, it's kinda the opposite of the first question; the closer your mic to the body, the more your movements will affect the sound.
jmcelroy said:
Should I expect to compress these tracks afterwards to get a nice, slick sound that sits in the background?
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You should expect to listen to the results and decide on whether or how much to compress based upon what you hear, and not have any pre-conceived expectations other than to make your performance itself as good as possible. Do not expect a compressor or anything else to make up for deficiencies in your performance, but rather that if you use them at all, it will be only to fine-tune a the sound of a good performance, not to try and fix or correct an uneven performance.
jmcelroy said:
Could someone provide a general sanity check here?
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I'm not qualified to help you there ;) :D.
jmcelroy said:
I tend to shift around when I play, even if I try not to. Also, in order to hear the differences in mic placements (sweet spot, etc) I have to listen to each track which requires that I move over the the keyboard and fiddle around for a bit with the computer. There's almost no chance that when I get back into playing position I'll be able to get into exactly the same spot.
Click to expand...
Both of those issues are addressable and correctable with practice. Don't be in a hurry to publish a recording, but work on it and your technique until you're actually ready...unless of course you're willing to accept such problems. Quality studio/session recording does take a measure of discipline that's usually not required in live playing.

As far a checking for the right mic technique and sound, just do some practice runs with the different setups without fiddling; fiddle in between runs. Then go back and listen to the results and pick the one that you get tuned in the best and works best for your ear. Then, once you get that set up, work on learning how to play to the microphone without looking like John Belushi doing his Joe Cocker imitation ;).

If you really want to or have to move somewhat at different points in your performance in order to get that emotive sound you want, then you just gotta decide when and where the cost of losing the mic placement is worth paying for that second or two of extra performance sound. But you'll still have to learn how to return to your original placement.

G.
 
One thing you never seem to read about when...reading about acoustic guitar mic setup/ distance/ angle and all that, is preamp settings...there's a lot of different preamp and there's no one setting...but I'm just saying...don't forget, after you've tweaked the bejesus out of mic position/ distance/ angle...to keep an eye on how hot or cold your tracking levels are. I know I've botched a lot of tracks. Think about what kind of track it will be and what levels are appropriate. What peak level do you think you want...etc.

Also, in recording acoustic, there's a lot to be said for rolling off some low and some high, after you track.
 
Harveys Microphone Thread. Sticky in the microphone forum.
http://www.itrstudio.com/MIC_CHAT.PDF

Page 17 of the PDF has a well written article on miking acoustic guitar. But if you're willing to learn a lot more, read the whole dang thing and then you'll have a clue of what youre really doing. Harvey's awesome!
 
Monkey Allen said:
I'm not sure what's doing with the second video...sometimes it seems to be just you two dudes playing...then sometimes it sounds like a full song overdub.

But the first video is DI for sure
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Oops..sorry! I should have been more clear. I didn't mean the videos. There's a little flash mp3 player in the upper right-hand corner that will play the actual album track for you.

Sorry for the confusion!

--John
 
Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.

SouthSIDE Glen said:
... close-miking and the mic is a distance
from the body that is less than the smallest measured dimension of the body (usually it's depth), I wouldn't worry too much about the room effects.

...the closer your mic to the body, the more your movements will affect the sound.
Click to expand...

Thanks for defining "close miking" for me. I've never seen that definition before but it's very helpful. I guess I'm trading off between room sound and shifting in and out of the sweet spot. I'm considering getting one of those guitar holders and setting it up so that it is always in exactly the same place for the duration of the session.

SouthSIDE Glen said:
You should expect to listen to the results and decide on whether or how much to compress based upon what you hear, and not have any pre-conceived expectations other than to make your performance itself as good as possible.
Click to expand...

I hear you. Still, I haven't quite developed the "hand-ear coordination" that makes that a reliable strategy. I think I'll probably post whatever I record to the mp3 clinic and get some advice. I'm still trying to train my ear, you know?

SouthSIDE Glen said:
Don't be in a hurry to publish a recording, but work on it and your technique until you're actually ready...unless of course you're willing to accept such problems. Quality studio/session recording does take a measure of discipline that's usually not required in live playing.
Click to expand...

Sure thing. Thanks for the advice. I'm sort of learning to play, sing, record and mix all in parallel. I'm very much a auditory-slash-kinesthetic learner so I tend to learn best by discussing ideas with people (like on this forum) and then trying out the techniques in my studio.

I will definitely follow your suggestions for how to do the experimentation. I have a much better idea for how seriously to take the not-fiddling-around thing now. Thanks again!

--John
 
Monkey Allen said:
One thing you never seem to read about when...reading about acoustic guitar mic setup/ distance/ angle and all that, is preamp settings...
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Yeah, there sure are a lot out there. I currently just run into my mbox2 pro. I've been toying with the idea of picking one up in the $1K range but I wasn't sure how wise of an investment it would be.
 
jmcelroy said:
Thanks for defining "close miking" for me. I've never seen that definition before but it's very helpful.
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Well, I didn't technically mean that as a definition of close miking; it was more of a guideline regarding the idiosyncrasies of miking an acoustic guitar.

Just to get semantic for a minute, technically; "near field" miking is generally described as placing the mic inside a distance equivalent to the largest dimension of the acoustic instrument. I'm not sure I've seen an actual definition for "close miking" (not to say there isn't one), but it generally is going to be somewhere inside of the "near field" of the acoustic instrument, and often well within that definition.

The main reason for the distinction between "near field" and "distant" miking is that inside the near field, the mic will tend to pick up localized sounds of the instrument (e.g. the difference in sound between the bridge and the sound hole, for example), whereas distant miking (outside the near field) will tend to pick up the overall sound of the whole composite instrument, a blend of all the different localized timbres.

An, of course, the farther from the instrument, the larger a role the room will play in the sound as well.
jmcelroy said:
I guess I'm trading off between room sound and shifting in and out of the sweet spot. I'm considering getting one of those guitar holders and setting it up so that it is always in exactly the same place for the duration of the session.
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A little movement won't kill ya, it just takes being aware of the situation and purposely trying to play to the mic. Think of it this way; you may drive with one hand 90% of the time, but when you go for your driver's test, you keep both hands on the wheel. Just think of the recording session as a driver's test ;).
jmcelroy said:
Sure thing. Thanks for the advice. I'm sort of learning to play, sing, record and mix all in parallel.
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if you don't mind some further honest advice; your results will be much better much faster if you learn to play and sing *before* you try to record. Having to separate performance issues from recording/mixing issues - especially if you don't have the ear developed yet - is difficult and very time consuming.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
if you don't mind some further honest advice; your results will be much better much faster if you learn to play and sing *before* you try to record. Having to separate performance issues from recording/mixing issues - especially if you don't have the ear developed yet - is difficult and very time consuming.
G.
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Oh, no. I don't mind honest advice in the slightest. I have to give and receive extremely honest technical advice all day at work. I prefer it.

I think I'll post an mp3 sometime this week of just a little acoustic noodling to see what the tracking\mixing suggestions are. If nobody complains about the performance I'll keep plugging away in parallel. If they do, I'll take some time out to practice. In fact, I'll post another reply to your post with a link to the mp3 clinic example so perhaps you can chime in, if you've got the time.

The other info in your response was enlightening too. Thanks a lot.
 
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