Acoustic Guitar Question

solaris1982

New member
This may sound like a dumb question, but I'm looking to buy a new acoustic sometime (hopefully) soon. The question I have is about body style.

What differences in sound do you get with different body styles? E.g. Jumbo, Dreadnought, Mini-Jumbo, etc. Is it more of an "EQ" change (like bringing out different freqs better), more or less volume, or what? Any input is appreciated.
 
Essentially your assumption is correct. Different body sizes and outlines are prone to give different timbres. You have to add to the mix that an even more important consideration is the woods used and the way the instrument has been voiced if at all when it was put together. For example how much consideration has been given to maximising tone and output by bracing and thicknessing the top. Another big contributing factor to the tone and projection is the depth of the sides.

As you can see there is no hard and fast rules about this and there are ots of considerations to take into account and your average luthier spends a lifetime learning these things. I'm beginning to get the hang of it after 30 years and hundreds of instruments.;);)

There really is no substitute to getting out there and listening to and playing as many as you can. Take someone with you so you can hear the guitar out front. The sound is way different up close and behind.

If you have a particular style or sound you are after we may be able to help with a few general pointers. Keep in mind that these would be general rules and in no way hard and fast guarantees.
 
Am I correct in assuming that shape matters very little when running plugged in to a P.A. or Amp?

I would say that's a bad assumption. Most acoustic/electrics use Piezo pickups which create a magnet by vibration of crystals, essentially amplifying by the same means as an electric guitar. Yet with an electric you would still get different sounds by hollowing out the body, changing woods, etc., so I would think the shape of the chamber and how sound reflects off the bracings would still be important.
 
Am I correct in assuming that shape matters very little when running plugged in to a P.A. or Amp?

Guitar tone has so many variables... wood, shape, string construction, string tension/thickness, bracing, etc. And if you're amplifying it, you have to add the kind of pickup system you're using to the mix.

I'll give you a short rundown on wood and tone:
For the top, the most common woods used are spruce and cedar. The two most common spruce tops are Sitka or Engelmann. Engelmann will provide a little more volume, give a bright tone, and will mature (reach it's full tonal quality) quicker than Sitka. Sitka, however, is the more durable of the two and will have a slightly warmer tone. Cedar will give a warmer tone than either of the Spruces. As for cost, Engelmann will cost more than the other two.

For backs and sides there a far more options. The most common being Mahogany, Indian Rosewood, and Maple. Of the three, maple is going to be the brightest - very punchy, followed by mahogany (also on the bright side but offering a very clear tone), and then Indian Rosewood would be a warmer tone and will have more of a bass presence than the other two.

There are other woods that are becoming more common these days as luthiers try to distinguish themselves. Cocobolo, as far as tone is concerned, falls between mahogany and rosewood but it weighs a ton. There are some who feel that, tonally, cocobolo is the closest wood to Brazilian rosewood but I'm not sure that's true. I don't think it's true of my 2002 Taylor 814ce Ltd. but I haven't played enough Brazilian rosewood guitars to really know for sure. Brazilian rosewood is the warmest and most prized of the tonal woods and will probably push the cost of any guitar into the $10,000+ range these days (and that explains why I don't own one). And a wood that I'm becoming more and more a fan of is walnut. Walnut gives you tons of sustain, gives a brighter response than mahogany but without sacrificing the bass as you would with maple. Koa is also popular but I haven't played any Koa guitars so I can't offer an opinion.

Shape will have less impact on tone than wood does, but it still should be considered. Pickers and strummers tend to gravitate towards dreadnaughts and jumbos. Fingerpickers lean towards small jumbos, concert-sized, and more recently parlour guitars (which have seen renewed popularity). The parlour guitars are also very popular amongst blues players. However, shape works hand in hand with bracing and wood thickness, so that two guitars with the same shape can sound very different if the bracing is not identical and the woods are of different thicknesses.

If I were you, I'd spend a few weeks going around to as many guitar stores as you can and playing everything in your price range. Don't worry about what a guitar looks like at this point, just try to get some idea as to what tone appeals to you. The more you enjoy the sound of a guitar, the more you're going to play it. Once you zero in on the tone you like, you'll be able to narrow your choices and make a decision.

Another thing I'd stress is playability. Some guitars are well-made and have great action (the space between the fretboard and the strings). Others are crap and will always be hard to play. Wherever you wind up buying your instrument, I'd get it right to a good luthier for a setup (yes, even acoustics need to be setup). He'll also be able to alert you to any potential problems with your purchase that may not be noticeable to an untrained eye such as a warped neck.

Lastly, and this is something I've been telling people for years, buy as much guitar as you can afford. A better guitar will inspire you while a crappy guitar will always sound like a crappy guitar no matter how good the player is.

Good luck with your guitar hunt. I love guitar shopping!!!

Jim
 
I would say that's a bad assumption. Most acoustic/electrics use Piezo pickups which create a magnet by vibration of crystals, essentially amplifying by the same means as an electric guitar. Yet with an electric you would still get different sounds by hollowing out the body, changing woods, etc., so I would think the shape of the chamber and how sound reflects off the bracings would still be important.

Guitarer, I have no idea what you are saying there. It makes no sense but, you can look at it like this. When you hear an acoustic guitar what you hear is the energy of the string being transfered to the top and pushed out into the air around you. A complex thing but simple in essence. What you hear is entirely a result of the materials the guitar is made of especially the top and bracing. We'll ignore room acoustics for now and assume it's the same in both cases. With an amplified acoustic th sound you hear goes through a few more processes before it reaches your ears. First it is converted to an electrical signal. via magnetic induction or piezo crystal. It's then processed by an amplifier and any sound processors and the final signal fed to a speaker. Many, many more steps there and the sound you get is still dependant on the method you use to generate your electrical signal.

All in all you will only get a generic acoustic sound using those methods and some are better than others. You relly don't need to worry about the differences between a mahogany back and sides as opposed to rosewood or whatever. You do need to worry about feedback issues and body size and materials will effect that greatly.
 
JTC111, I'm not sure what your basing your info on there but it's hugely more complex than that. I'm not going to pick holes in it because I know your not laying down rules here, but be wary of generalisations where tonewood is concerned. No two pieces of wood are the same even when cut form the same billet. You have also missed out the king of all spruce, European and if I was out looking that would be top of my list. Cedar is also still popular and Carpathian spruce is becoming very common on decent low to mid range instruments.

You simply can't define a guitars sound from the timber. You can only ever get near the ball park.

Best advice is to get out there and try as many as you can.
 
Most acoustic/electrics use Piezo pickups which create a magnet by vibration of crystals, essentially amplifying by the same means as an electric guitar.
Piezos are non-magnetic. They work by converting vibration (or change in pressure) directly to electrical energy. The resulting signal is very weak which is why active on-board electronics are used to amplify it to line level.
 
Piezos are non-magnetic. They work by converting vibration (or change in pressure) directly to electrical energy. The resulting signal is very weak which is why active on-board electronics are used to amplify it to line level.

I'm not sure from reading Guitarers comments that he was actually claiming that. As I said it makes no sense as it stands. I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt this week.:D

For those who want to know how the piezo crystal works read this It even uses my favorite stuff to demonstrate, Lego..:D

http://www.creative-science.org.uk/piezo1.html
 
As I said it makes no sense as it stands.
I'll agree with that....But that part actually seemed like a statement of fact so I wanted to correct it.

I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt this week.:D
So you're doing the alternating-week-god-cop-bad-cop thing. :D

For those who want to know how the piezo crystal works read this It even uses my favorite stuff to demonstrate, Lego..:D

http://www.creative-science.org.uk/piezo1.html
Very cool, thanks!
 
JTC111, I'm not sure what your basing your info on there but it's hugely more complex than that. I'm not going to pick holes in it because I know your not laying down rules here, but be wary of generalisations where tonewood is concerned. No two pieces of wood are the same even when cut form the same billet. You have also missed out the king of all spruce, European and if I was out looking that would be top of my list. Cedar is also still popular and Carpathian spruce is becoming very common on decent low to mid range instruments.

You simply can't define a guitars sound from the timber. You can only ever get near the ball park.

Best advice is to get out there and try as many as you can.

If you can't make generalizations about wood, then wood makes no difference. But since we both know that wood does, in fact, make a difference, then of course you can make generalizations. Does that mean that every mahogany/sitka guitar will sound similar? Of course not, and I didn't mean to imply that they would and I offered some reasons as to why they wouldn't.

I don't think you read everything I said did because where you're attempting to disagree with me, you're actually repeating things I've said... but long posts often get skimmed and mistakes happen. I did say that in addition to wood selection, bracing and thickness also make a difference. If I wanted to get really technical, I'd start talking about molecular cohesiveness but, christ, do we really need to take it that far? Hell, you forgot to nail me for not talking about nut, bridge, and pin material too.

And while European and Carpathian spruce may be used on tops more today than in recent decades, they're certainly not in the majority due to their rarity (granted, the supply is coming back) and the OP isn't likely to find many guitars using those woods hanging on the walls of his local guitar shop. There are still a much greater number of guitars built with Sitka or Engelmann. I was attempting to give a general overview to the OP, not teach a course in the causes of every variation in the tonal properties in guitars. I wasn't trying to be complete in comments, just helpful. Being complete would require a book of several hundred pages, wouldn't it? I concentrated my comments on what he's most likely to encounter in his search for a guitar and tempered it with some understanding as to why two guitars built of the same woods could sound vastly different.

As for getting out there and trying as many as he can, that's exactly what I told him to do. You really should give my post a good read because you really didn't disagree with anything I said.
 
If you can't make generalizations about wood, then wood makes no difference.
Thats just a ridiculous thing to say

But since we both know that wood does, in fact, make a difference, then of course you can make generalizations. Does that mean that every mahogany/sitka guitar will sound similar? Of course not, and I didn't mean to imply that they would and I offered some reasons as to why they wouldn't.
Hey, I was being nice to you about it by not telling you exactly where you have the wrong "generalised" opinions. If you want me to I will.

My point in replying to you as I did was to say that the OP does not need to worry about those things specifically. All you do by giving those generalisations is to inform his opinion before he hits the store.


I don't think you read everything I said did because where you're attempting to disagree with me, you're actually repeating things I've said... but long posts often get skimmed and mistakes happen. I did say that in addition to wood selection, bracing and thickness also make a difference. If I wanted to get really technical, I'd start talking about molecular cohesiveness but, christ, do we really need to take it that far? Hell, you forgot to nail me for not talking about nut, bridge, and pin material too.
Hell bring it on I'd love to debate those things with someone..

And while European and Carpathian spruce may be used on tops more today than in recent decades, they're certainly not in the majority due to their rarity (granted, the supply is coming back) and the OP isn't likely to find many guitars using those woods hanging on the walls of his local guitar shop. There are still a much greater number of guitars built with Sitka or Engelmann. I was attempting to give a general overview to the OP, not teach a course in the causes of every variation in the tonal properties in guitars. I wasn't trying to be complete in comments, just helpful. Being complete would require a book of several hundred pages, wouldn't it? I

European spruce is not a rarity by the way. Carpathian still is and always has been.

concentrated my comments on what he's most likely to encounter in his search for a guitar and tempered it with some understanding as to why two guitars built of the same woods could sound vastly different.
If you want to continue this discussion maybe you could elaborate on this bit as you brought it up in the first place.

As for getting out there and trying as many as he can, that's exactly what I told him to do. You really should give my post a good read because you really didn't disagree with anything I said.
I gave you post a very good read. Maybe you should have given mine a good read because you seem to have repeated me with embellishment. Now who's "repeating things I've said".;)

Lets be honest if were talking about repeating things here all you did was take the content of my first post in this thread and add lots of stuff that is not relevant to the process of selecting a guitar. Making one yes, buying one no. Anyway thanks for reinforcing my point.
 
All you do by giving those generalisations is to inform his opinion before he hits the store.

Hell bring it on I'd love to debate those things with someone..

I don't have the time or desire to turn this into some contest, so I'll make this last point and give you the last word...

One can make generalizations about wood tone. Luthiers do it all the time. If I'm to believe what you're saying, then it stands to reason that if I walk into a luthier's shop and want to have a custom guitar made, and tell him that I'm looking for a warm tone, something to contrast my mahogany/spruce D-18, that the luthier is just as likely to suggest maple as he is Indian rosewood. Now we both know that's not true. And the reason it's not true is because different woods have different tonal properties and to some degree those tonal properties are predictable. I agree that there are variations in wood and variables in design that will also affect tone, but in my original post I never said otherwise.

Okay, the last word is yours.
 
Guitarer, I have no idea what you are saying there. It makes no sense but, you can look at it like this. When you hear an acoustic guitar what you hear is the energy of the string being transfered to the top and pushed out into the air around you. A complex thing but simple in essence. What you hear is entirely a result of the materials the guitar is made of especially the top and bracing. We'll ignore room acoustics for now and assume it's the same in both cases. With an amplified acoustic th sound you hear goes through a few more processes before it reaches your ears. First it is converted to an electrical signal. via magnetic induction or piezo crystal. It's then processed by an amplifier and any sound processors and the final signal fed to a speaker. Many, many more steps there and the sound you get is still dependant on the method you use to generate your electrical signal.

All in all you will only get a generic acoustic sound using those methods and some are better than others. You relly don't need to worry about the differences between a mahogany back and sides as opposed to rosewood or whatever. You do need to worry about feedback issues and body size and materials will effect that greatly.

What I meant was...Regardless of the fact that a pickup is being used, all of the factors, including shape should (I say should because it's always up for debate.) still play an important role in the overall sound.

Thanks for pointing out my error, Zaphod. I'm sure you know what I meant :D
 
Thanks to all for the advice. I suppose the general consensus (which is what I planned on doing anyways :-) ) is to go play guitars and pick one I like. It's just good to have a starting point to know what I want to narrow my original search down to.
 
Thanks to all for the advice. I suppose the general consensus (which is what I planned on doing anyways :-) ) is to go play guitars and pick one I like. It's just good to have a starting point to know what I want to narrow my original search down to.

Yep...if it don't sound good or play good to you, put it down....if it does, buy it!
 
Thanks to all for the advice. I suppose the general consensus (which is what I planned on doing anyways :-) ) is to go play guitars and pick one I like. It's just good to have a starting point to know what I want to narrow my original search down to.
Yep, It would still be helpful if you gave a few ideas about your intended use and styles you play as well as a little about what sort of tone you like. Then we might be able to give a little more qualified advice.

Despite JTC111 going off on one about what I said unless you are commissioning an instrument, which I don't think you are you needn't worry too much about the minutiae of tonewood. Most factory built instruments aren't voiced in any case. There are a couple of guys here who have a huge amount of experience of the acoustic guitar and a fewer still that know about tonewood. I'm sure they would all be glad to help if you can give us a bit more on your ideal. That way the info you get will be qualified. It is impossible to say anything conclusive when you just ask about the acoustic guitar in general.

Choosing a guitar should be a pleasure so set yourself some objectives and get a freind to go with you and have fun with it.

So what style do you play? where are you playing it? Whose sound do you like ?
 
Just go out and play some f****ing guitars and use your ears and hands etc to decide what you like.
 
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