Acoustic Guitar Hell

[TelePaul]

hey guys throw me a lifeline here...i'm dying here in acoustic guitar hell. Having been an electric player for years im finding the transition to recording acoustics...hard. Im playing a Martin D 15 and naively expected unreal tones through my Sennheiser e819s...and, well it sucks. But thats just one problem. I seem to capture alot of 'dead air'...almost like barely audible static or hiss, we're talking minor, but i notice it. As well as this, my guitar sounds...well...tame. Is it as simple as a Gobo and a decent condenser? On a tangeant, is anyone elses hard drive processing (the old familiar click and whirl of computers) showing up in their mix?

Theres a sample below on 'Highway Patrolman'. Tear it to pieces, I need all the advice I can get.

www.purevolume.com/pauloleary

I just want John Martyn sounds; is that too much to ask? also check out 'no name' for sum laughs.

 

[Robert D]

Hey, it's not entirely hell, but a far cry from heaven. First, the best you can record is the sound that's actually happening, so address that first. The D-15 is a nice sounding guitar, I love mine, but it NEEDs fresh strings, since the mahagony makes it a little dark to begin with. Also, how and where you pick and strum greatly affects tone, right down to what pick you use.
Then there's the room you record it in. Acoustic guitar sound is a function of the instrument and it's environment. A dead room will sound, well, dead. You want quiet, and you want nice sounding, difuse reflections.
When all that has been addressed, and the guitar and room sound good to your ear, then it's time to capture that. Nothing does that better than a pair of small diaphram condensors recorded as a stereo pair. If you can't do that right now, then work with what you've got and experiment with mic position. Get the mic away from the soundhole, where it will pick up a lot of lower frequencies compounded by proximity effect.

 

[TelePaul]

Man you are a hero, i owe ya a pint! Yeah, you're way right about the strings, just not sure how you could tell! Good job! And as for the room...its a conservatory. With a wooden floor. Suicide, I know. Can i put up some partitions? Or make a booth? Thatd help, right? So a condenser at the neck and one at the bridge maybe? Man i appreciate this so much.

 

[Robert D]

No prob, happy to help. There's lot's of ways to mic it once you get the guitar sounding good, and doing a search here will reveal many posts on this subject. I've had good results with an X/Y pair on that guitar, about 18" out from where the neck meets the body. You can also try one mic off the 12th fret, and one over your shoulder. For the X/Y coincident pair, it should be two of the same mics. For the other method, you can mix and experiment.

 

[smtcharlie]

It's really hard to hear the finer points of a recording through mp3 (understatement of a lifetime!), but I think that I could hear that strange noise that you were talking about..? Does it show up more when you hit the B string? Seems like there's an odd rattle somehow, maybe just in that string. Or I could be crazy.

I don't know what that mic is that you are using, but I'll guess that it's a dynamic by the sound of the recording or a pencil condensor.? Which I don't think sounds that bad at all, actually. What can I say, I like the mid's in my acoustic sound. I listened quickly to the dude that you referenced, and his acoustic sounds really bright. A side address condensor will probably get you on that path. My advice would be to just read the posts for a mic that's bright, but not harsh.

I've got a D 15 too, they are great guitars, aren't they? If you've got the dark wood, keep the mic pointed at the fret board...probably....

 

[Dani Pace]

I play mostly electric but occasionaly need the sound of an acoustic. One of the hardest things for me has been the difference in picking technique. Don't panic! I know a lot of electric players who (like me) sound awfull on acoustic and a lot of acoustic players who sound equally bad on electric. Although the principles are the same, there is a great difference in the way an electric and an acoustic are played. It takes practice to become good at either, and a lot of practice to be good on both.

 

[soundchaser59]

You sure about that Sennheiser mic number? I cant find any listing anywhere for an "e819"....

 

[TelePaul]

You sure about that Sennheiser mic number? I cant find any listing anywhere for an "e819"....

my bad, try e816! i suck at reading seemingly...

 

[TelePaul]

It's really hard to hear the finer points of a recording through mp3 (understatement of a lifetime!), but I think that I could hear that strange noise that you were talking about..? Does it show up more when you hit the B string? Seems like there's an odd rattle somehow, maybe just in that string. Or I could be crazy.

I don't know what that mic is that you are using, but I'll guess that it's a dynamic by the sound of the recording or a pencil condensor.? Which I don't think sounds that bad at all, actually. What can I say, I like the mid's in my acoustic sound. I listened quickly to the dude that you referenced, and his acoustic sounds really bright. A side address condensor will probably get you on that path. My advice would be to just read the posts for a mic that's bright, but not harsh.

I've got a D 15 too, they are great guitars, aren't they? If you've got the dark wood, keep the mic pointed at the fret board...probably....

hey i appreciate this! all of your posts, i mean it, im taking so much on board! It might be the b string, but as was eluded to earlier, I'll change all the strings. I'm just working alot and have to get round to it! It was a dynamic mic- all i have right now, and i have to turn up the input on my sound card all the wya to hear almost anything. I'm really thinking about pencil condensers alright. Yeah John Martyn is pretty amazing, I wasn't serious about sounding THAT good.

 

[Jahn]

I play mostly electric but occasionaly need the sound of an acoustic. One of the hardest things for me has been the difference in picking technique. Don't panic! I know a lot of electric players who (like me) sound awfull on acoustic and a lot of acoustic players who sound equally bad on electric. Although the principles are the same, there is a great difference in the way an electric and an acoustic are played. It takes practice to become good at either, and a lot of practice to be good on both.

This is actually a good point. Unless you are SRV, electric guitarists tend to strum lightly, brushing across the strings instead of really digging in. What works for speed on electric translates to wimpy tone on acoustic. Change the angle of your attack to be more perpendicular, and really chop down on the strings - Martins can take it! I use a medium dunlop plectrum to get into a nice chunka-chunka sound. So put away that ultra heavy pick you use for lead guitar, and super flimsy pick used for speed, and go for the mediums!

 

[smtcharlie]

Yup, the points above are good - even though the clip posted sounds like finger picking, rather than pick picking. (What an odd phrase that is...!)

Anyway, I'm going to venture a guess and say that you should look at a Studio Projects B1 and a M-Audio DMP3 pre-amp (even though I've never used a B1). The DMP3 pre, I think, is the personality that you are looking for - very clear and clean, very "up front" kind of sound. And I still think that you want a side address condensor, not a pencil condensor based on the sound that you want.

So you want a B1:
http://www.studioprojects.com/b1.html

Not a C4:
http://www.studioprojects.com/c4.html

I, on the other hand, love mid's in my acoustic sound. So I use a AKG C1000 which people hate around here. But it's mid-heavy!

Oh, and this may be of interest, I once asked Martin what strings they recommend for a D 15. Martin strings can't be beat...for about 3 days. Then they sound like crap. That's my experience, anyway.


************
Hello,
The strings the D15 comes with from the factory are MSP 4200 Medium
Phosphor Bronze

Regards,
Mr. Carmen A. Cortez
CFM Customer Service Manager

 

[TelePaul]

Are Studio Projects good? I kow they spark alot of controversy...but you reckon that with the pre-amp I'll be okay??? Basically I want a good clear sound, one that'll reflect the serious amount of bills i spent on the guitar! I do think I need some good Gobos though; I was experimenting with my drums today, the sound bounces everywhere.

 

[Sloan]

Are Studio Projects good? I kow they spark alot of controversy...but you reckon that with the pre-amp I'll be okay??? Basically I want a good clear sound, one that'll reflect the serious amount of bills i spent on the guitar! I do think I need some good Gobos though; I was experimenting with my drums today, the sound bounces everywhere.

I've got a Studio Projects B1 and I've had good results using it with acoustic guitar.

 

[TelePaul]

thats cool, but i should go with a pre-amp too right?

 

[Sloan]

thats cool, but i should go with a pre-amp too right?

It kind of depends on what your recording into.
I use a Yamaha AW16G and use it's internal preamps. I could use an external preamp if I wanted to, but I haven't found a need to do so yet.

 

[gcapel]

Room Ambiants are often the cause of acoustic instrument problems. I experience ambiant problems using dynamic mics as well. Isolating guitar cabs is easy. Isolationg a human holding a flat top acoustic is more of a task. Sound treatment is fairly cheap and there are several ways of doing it. I would search the forum, ive read some pretty unique ideas that work. You will also benifit from it recording a drum kit. It will make the world of difference. If your still not satisfied I would then look at different mic's and mic pre's.

 

[TelePaul]

Im using a Tascam US 122 with built in pres I think. Do i need something to give it some extra push?

 

[big big]

same exact thing happened to me

I bought a RODE NT-2 and a Presonus Blue Tube preamp and it's been crystal perfect ever since.

Hope this helps you.

 

[TelePaul]

cheers guys youve all been great, really great. I guess i needed it all laid out for me; I need to find a good sound in the room and capture it with a good mic while playing wel. And that all seems doable with practice, so cheers!