acid,SMPTE,mmc mtc and 1 inch reel. questions that a PRO cant even answer

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czar of bizarre

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hello my friends. how are you all. if anyone is out there reading this it means that i have failed my mission. it means that i have not been able to record my wav files on 1 inch reel. heres the deal:



i used wav files and loops from a program that has no sync support. i saved the stuff as wav and loaded it into acid pro 2.0 i saved the stuff as acid files. i am using a pc with windows 98, amd k62, 475mhz with 376mb of ram a dio 2448 sound card and a roland um 2 for midi interface. i am trying to dump all the wav files on 24 track one inch reel track by track and flown back into the digital realm for mastering. so now that you know what im trying to do let me tell you the problem.


problem: im going analog out into a 1 inch machine. i couldnt get the acid program to chase the 1 inch reel machine. its a tascam tape with 2 one inch units on it. its used for 2 24 track tascam mixers. for a total of 48 tracks. i went through and set acid so many ways but it wouldnt chase the reel. when i finally did get the acid clock to say LISTENING i couldnt play back any files. the midi signal was being sent because the lights on the midi box lit up showing it was getting the message. however acid would not playback. the timer would roll and roll and roll but the song would not move.
th eengineer set his stuff to 1.59.59 with smpte non drop 30 frames. i set acid to the same thing. it didnt work. i ried everything that was listed in the ACID SYNC page from the manual. no help.


question: what are the proper ways to set acid to sync to a reel machine? what settings do i need to make so the engineer can press record on his tape and acid starts playing? i want to drop the stuff track by track. mute all the instruments and record. mute record mute record. thats what i want to do. i just cant get acid to do it. what midi settings do i need to make within windows? within acid? what do need to do?


can i load the stuff into cakewalk and sync from that program? if so what settings do i need to make in cakewalk?


i need SERIOUS help. my LIFE is depending on this......i only have a limited time. all help will be REWARDED!



ty


czar

ps i hope you understand what my questions are
 
Acid will not sync.

You must use Cakewalk for that purpose. :)

Also, what's up with the double posting????

peace...:D:D:D

spin ;)
 
Also, there is a pretty good chance that the tape transport on the Tascam machines are not stable enough to generate a stable smpte output for the computer to sync to.

Digital recorders need VERY stable incoming time code to achieve sync. If the incoming clock varies even a bit, you could lose sync.

One other possiblity is that you may have recorded the smpte tone with some kind of noise reduction on. If so, try recording the time code without noise reduction.

Also, if you record the smpte track too loud you could have a distorted signal. If you recorded it too low, you may have all the tape hiss messing up the smpte. I believe somewhere around -10 is where you want the smpte track to be recorded on an analog machine.

What smpte generator did you use to stripe the smpte track to the analog tape? Possibly, the smpte generator is not working properly.

Also, I would make sure to use the "master" analog deck for striping the time code and not the "slave deck".

Oh, also, you have to make sure that you have proper smpte offsets. If the incoming time code is 1:59:59, you SONG on the computer must have that same value. But, it is simply easier to leave the songs time code alone and set an offset to that 0:00:00 STARTS when the incoming time code is 1:59:59.

If you are using Mide Time Code instead of straight SMPTE, then you are a fool! :) Sorry, not trying to suggest that you are NORMALLY a fool, it is just that MTC just does not have the same reliability as SMPTE and should be avoided for complex sync setups like what you have.

Now, if any of this works, you owe me, let's say, $1000US for my help! ;) But if you are a bit short, then a CD of the stuff you are working with will work. LOL.....

Good luck.
 
ty guys. hey spin the reason why i double post is because sonusman hit the nail on the head....i am a fool..lol. any way i see several places to post the same post. i saw an acid forum and forums dealing with smpte so i figured i would post in all forums that had any relevence to what i was doing. however if double posting is not allowed on this site or if it is getting on your nerves(things i do have that effect)i will stop. so i have to import the stuff into cakewalk now? if so what settings do i need to make on cw?


sonusman it wasnt the tape machine. we loaded several reels and it still happened. my midi box lit up when the signal came in. however acid just wouldnt play back. i think i should import the stuff into cakewalk and try that. so if either of you can give me the settings to make on cw i would appreciate it. i dont wanna post this in the cakewalk forum.



thanks guys


sonus i dont have 1000 in us funds. however if you want a copy of my music or a copy of the programs consider it yours.
 
Hey friend, I don't think you quite understand how digital works in relation to timing.

If you are using an external sync to play the file from the computer, that sync tone has to be rock solid stable for the computer to be able to keep track of IT'S timing in relation to the incoming time code. If the incoming time code drifts in it's timing too much, the computer cannot make sense of it for the purposes of playing back digital audio files (which by the way follow a VERY rigid word clock standard. In the maginitude of at least 44.1KHz ticks per second, and will only drift at the most about .5% when things are really bad with the cystal that supplies the clock. Hell, .5% maybe too much drift for digital audio actually!).

Your "midi box" does not require as stict of a stable clock to spew out MTC or SMPTE data. In fact, midi is an extemely unstable time code standard! I have heard so many midi compositions where the clock drifts so much that is causes significant phasing issues on playback.

Anyway, the actual reels of tape are going to have little to do with the tape transport motor on your analog machine. If the tape transport motor is not stable enough to keep the stripped smpte tone stable enough for digital audio to playback to, changing tapes will not alleviate this problem.

I tried to slave ADAT's via the BRC to stripped smpte on a 2" MCI machine long ago. The MCI was in tip top shape, and for a week we tried to keep the ADAT's running in sync with the smpte on the tape. Would not happen. I went to a consultant I used to use and sure enough, this particular MCI machine would not stay stable enough for the ADAT's to follow. He suggested a Studer or Otari machine if I wanted to sync successfully! LOL......Like we had another $25,000 to buy a Studer! :)

Try this. Load up your song in ACID WITHOUT the .wav files, just the midi files (if you are using them together) and see if it will achieve lock. If it will, I totally hit the nail on the head here. If it still won't, I still may be right, but you obviously have a different problem.

Ah! I just checked the Sonic Foundry site. It WOULD seem the ACID is incapable of slaving to external time code, but it CAN generate it (which does not really help you because your two machines are not going to slave to it more then likely, although that WOULD be the best way to run your sync).

So, try Cakewalk. But if you continue to have problems, refer to the above about tape transport motors on low end analog machines.

Ed
 
sonusman. we tried to trigger from a keyboard and drum machine. still didnt work. the guy who owns the studio played his tape stuff and everything was rock solid. i dont think it is his machine. we tried analog out from my sound card and digital out from my soundcard to another unit. it didnt work. i think acid cant slave. i can do one of several things. i can see if the program he uses supports wav file. or i can TRY to sync acid to the VS and record like that (unlikely) and try to sync to tape. or i can use cakewalk or cubase to sync to the reel. however i dont know what settings to use in cakewalk so ANY help would be appreciated. if push comes to shove i will have him record the stuff on reel...but on 2 channels only. i DONT want to skip the multitrack phase. if i must......DAMN i MUST find a way. cakewalk can import wav. just tell me the settings i need to make to make it a possible slave.



thanx


czar
 
sonusman the guy at the studio uses "digital orchestrator plus" for midi. it can import and export wav. he syncs his reels to that machine. do you think it will work? if i save my wavs as DATA he shouldnt have a problem placing the disk in his cd rom drive and pasting the stuff should he?
like i said he uses that program for sync. u think it will work?



czar
 
my friend. hixmix. i would be so happy if you would answer it. any info tips or help will do. thankyou for even posting.



czar


ps thanx 4 posting it shows that you were considerate and looked at my problem.
 
Don't hold your breath waiting on Hix, Czar. He's the (capable) jester 'round these parts...

Having read your posts, I have to ask: why are you transferring your audio? Perhaps the solution to your problem lies in finding another way towards getting THERE, instead of having it end up on tape...

1) Get your stuff to his computer and then transfer it to tape.

2) Outsource the transfer.

3) Rent a 24-output soundcard and rack your brain with the questions THAT would bring on...

So, again, why are you transferring to tape? For that analog sound, to send off for outsourced services, to use those reels of tape you hot-bought off of E-bay one drunken evening...

:D
 
ty kelly. i DONT want the all digital sound. thats why im transfering. i dont want to have 24 out puts. i am willing to go stereo or mono out track by track. so if the song is 5 minutes long and i have 10 tracks its going to take 50 or so minutes to dump it. im with it. as long as everything is synced up. so dump the stuff on his pc? gotcha. i didnt get the tape off ebay either. in fact i never thought about looking on ebay for tape..interesting. i want an EXPERIENCED and FRESH ear on the project. once again i dont like the all digital sound. thats why im going through troubles. anyway thanx for the info.


czar


ps nice looking cat.
 
Hey Czar, I thought that PC's was the ned all and be all of recording. Thats what you thought in the HipHop forum! :)

Skip the trouble. Mix it on a DAW system. If not on your PC, then transfer it by WAV to ProTools or something.
 
sorry reggie your wrong.

no my friend your wrong. in the hip hop forum i said that soft synths are just as powerful if not better than hard ware. i said pc sequncers are better than an mpc. also in the hip hop forum i stated that i DID NOT like the all digital sound and that i was dropping my stuff on reel channnel by channel. so your wrong my friend. its not a matter of "TROUBLE". its a matter of how I want MY tracks to SOUND. i dont like the all digital sound. if i can have analog without the hiss why not? digital analog digital . just llike ed kramer said. not only that but i have heard a lot of stuff that was done this way and it killed the all analog and the all digital stuff.


as far as mixing on a daw i have access to pro tools and paris. this is how the format is going



digital source--->analog tape---->digital source(wave lab ,paris or protools)for more mixing(if needed) and final mastering.

so do you comprehend whats going on? i dont want my stuff sounding like everyone else. i dont want my stuff sounding "regular". i dont want people to listen to it and say "oh that was mixed on pro tools, everyone is doing that these days". i want my tracks to sound like they are supposed to. not too hot not too low. cohesive from song to song. i dont try to shape my sound because others are doing it. maybe thats what seperates me from you and the men from the boys................



czar




ps


:P :D
 
The comment about your attitudes towards PC's was a joke. Thats why there was a smilie there. I was betting on you having a sense of humour, you see.

Secondly, your wrong. Softsynths aren't better than hardware. And PC Sequencers aren't better than MPC. Just different.

Thirdly, you can get a more analog sound by mixing to a reel-to-reel. You don't have to transfer the tracks to a multi-track one track at a time. THAT would be tha way to get "analog" sound without getting the hiss. Using a 24 track will surely give you more hiss than just mixing to a r2r.
 
ok let me say something. in MY opinion ALOT of software is better than hardware. it all depends on a stable computer and what not. i like computer sounds and hardware sounds however I have an EASIER time with the pc. no cables, no wires, no shorts. i give reaktor two thumbs up.


in my OPINION a pc sequencer KILLS an mpc. thats just my opinion. look at the specs and price and everything you can think of to compare the two. 24 bit digital vs a 16 bit machine. 32 voice polyphony to 64 or 128 voices. unlimited midi tracks and well you get the picture.



you still are not getting the picture. im using 1 inch tape. i want to have EVERYTHING SEPERATE. 24 track 1 inch tape. i couldnt get the 2 inch so one inch will suffice. running at the proper number of ips and with a dolby reduction. the engineer let me hear stuff from his one inch machine. NO HISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! digital analog digital. i want each sound on its own channel and i want each sound to have its own range. finally i will quote you on something you said:


"Thirdly, you can get a more analog sound by mixing to a reel-to-reel. You don't have to transfer the tracks to a multi-track one track at a time. THAT would be tha way to get "analog" sound without getting the hiss. Using a 24 track will surely give you more hiss than just mixing to a r2r. "



you said that. now i have to ask you this question. what is the diffrence between 24 track 1 inch tape and a reel to reel? your confusing your self. when you are using a one inch 24 track tape you ARE using reel to reel. i DONT understand your logic. im placing each track on the reel. and mixing it. i dont have 24 outputs from my pc or his so i have to go track by track. im MULTITRACKING. placing each sound or instrument on its on track. that way you can manipulate and process the sound to the fullest. i dont want to run the entire 2 TRACK MIXDOWN FROM THE PC TO THE TAPE.


you DONT make any sense. i called several places and i talked to several people about your comment. each guy at the place laughed at YOU. contact them for further info:

richard puttbach@zone music 707 664 1213

paul bananas at large@ 415 457 7600

gordon@gordans music@ 1 800 380 7529

i also contacted several other people to explain the situation BEFORE i even started to drop the stuff on reel and each one agreed with me 100%

merl saunders jr, of the national academy of recording arts &sciences, inc 415 749 0779

frank dorritie of los medanos college, 925 439 2185 ext 3327

mike lawson publisher of mix books em books and owner of artistpro.com 707 554 1935 ext 11.

its obvious that you DONT know what your talking about so i advise you to REFRAIN from making posts that are filled with idiocy.


thankyou


czar


LOL :p
 
Well well - Mr. Czar - birarre you certainly are.



Quote: "its obvious that you DONT know what your talking about so i advise you to REFRAIN from making posts that are filled with idiocy."

Let me make some very simple statements.

1 - You aks a question and enter into a discussion, and then you call one of our valued contributing members an idiot.

2 - Not only that, you type an insignificant list of names in support of your accusation. Let me ask you something; you phoned all those people did you? in order to discuss the above? Ehhhh why didn't you ask them your question in the first place? I know the answer - they would have laughed at you wouldn't they?

3 - quote; "i want to have EVERYTHING SEPERATE. 24 track 1 inch tape. i couldnt get the 2 inch so one inch will suffice" OK - that beats everythin I've heard this year. Would you like me to give you a list of 2" suppliers? Definately much easier to get ANYWHERE than 1" - therefore, and for multiple other reasons to obvious to mention - total bullshit

I just hate people who ask a question and then come back with know-it-all (and wrong) comments
 
Well, if he phoned them, and told them I thought a 24-track tape recorder wasn't a reel-2-reel, then of course they would laugh. Unfortunately for them, they don't understand that it is Czar that can't read. Ah well, thats not my problem. This last post from him, and the last one he did in the Hiphop forum, has proven to me that he is dense beyond beleif. I will try to ignore him in the future, although I can't promise I succeed.
 
Is it in the water?

Geez, guys...

Both valid points. I think Regebro was trying to save you some noise floor, Czar. Whether you put a +6dB signal on 2 tracks or 24, you'll still have the same signal-to-noise ratio. At least in Reg's method you can kill the noise in the empty tracks before your analog dump (whereas the 24-track option will take some punch-outs or automation to rid the hiss...). This is not to say you still won't get the feel of your tape transfer; it's just done at a different point. Still digital-analog-digital.

I wish I could answer your question, Czar, but I don't know the solution outside of using a different application or setup. You say your midi manager indicates a signal; maybe it's output is shot. Do you have another midi device with which to test the output of that box? That might be your problem (wow, i doubt it, though).

Otherwise, just buy a different DAW application... You seem dedicated to a certain sound, and we can all appreciate that. It may be time to shell out a bit of cash... Or, if Sonusman's right about your deck, either outsource the transfer or rent (ouch) the machine you need to lock code...
 
ok let me say this. i know what i want. i know what i want to do. the initial post had to do with smpte mtc mmc and reel. so i would assume that ANYTHING THAT DIDNT HAVE TO DO WITH THAT WAS NOT NEEDED. i dont want to mix on a daw system as reggie first recomended. if he had read the first post he would have realized that. so i will leave that as it stands.......if you DONT want to contribute to the INITIAL post than why post? if you cant help me with smpte and keeping everything synced dont tell me to mix on a daw. thats not what i want to hear.

now lets move on to sjoko 2.


1. I NEVER CALLED ANYONE ON THIS POST AN IDIOT. I SAID REGBROS "POSTS" WERE FILLED WITH IDIOCY. BIG DIFFERENCE MY FRIEND. BIIIIIIG DIFFERENCE.



2. I TYPED NAMES OF PEOPLE WHO WORK AT MUSIC STORES I CONTACTED THEM YESTERDAY AND EXPLAINED THE SITUATION. THEY ALL KNEW WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. THEY UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY.
THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIDNT WORK AT THE MUSIC STORE WERE THE NAMES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE KNOWN IN THE MUSIC BIZ. I ASKED THEM ABOUT GOING DIGITAL ANALOG DIGITAL DURING A MUSIC SEMINAR 6 MONTHS AGO I THEY GAVE ME THEIR CARDS AND TOLD ME TO FEEL FREE TO CONTACT THEM ANYTIME. SO THE OWNER OF MIX MAGAZINE AND THE MIX BOOKS IS AN INSIGNIFICANT SOURCE? IF YOU READ WHAT I SAID YOU WOULD SEE THAT I DID CONTACT THE PEOPLE BEFORE I EVEN TRIED TO ACCOMPLISH THIS.



3.A LOT OF STUDIOS HERE IN THE BAY DONT HAVE 2 INCH REEL. A LOT OF PLACES ARE USING ADATS OR HARD DISC OR 1 INCH. THE STUDIO I DID WANT TO GO TO ARE BOOKED FOR 4 MONTHS.THEREFOR ITS OBVIOUS THAT ONCE AGAIN A PERSON BUTTS IN AND SAYS STUF BEFORE THEY READ OR EVEN ASK WHAT HAS BEEN SAID.


ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I DONT HATE ANYONE FOR ANY REASON. REGBRO IS A HUMAN BEING AND IT IS OK TO DISAGREE. HOWEVER SJOKO MAY VERY WELL BE A FOOL OR IDIOT(YES I SAID IT) BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT HE MISQUOTES PEOPLE AND DOESNT KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.



regbro if i came off a little harsh or if i offended you i apologize for my actions. look at what you typed:



"Thirdly, you can get a more analog sound by mixing to a reel-to-reel. You don't have to transfer the tracks to a multi-track one track at a time. THAT would be tha way to get "analog" sound without getting the hiss. Using a 24 track will surely give you more hiss than just mixing to a r2r."



i understand what you are saying but you dont understand me. i WANT each track seperate. i want to dump them on the reel and mix them from there and then go out into the pc or pro tools. when you say:

"Using a 24 track will surely give you more hiss than just mixing to a r2r."

thats where im confused. a 24 track 1 INCH TAPE is r2r. so naturally i will say that you dont know what your talking about. i dont want to take my digital stuff MIX it on the pc and fly the 2 track mix on the reel. thats NOT what i want to do. however IF that is what i NEED to do in order to get the job done i will consider it. so with that being explained i hope you understand. when you say:

"Thirdly, you can get a more analog sound by mixing to a reel-to-reel. "


do you understand that i dont want to process the sound from the pc but from the reel? do you understand that i WILL be mixing to AND from the reel? you said this:


"You don't have to transfer the tracks to a multi-track one track at a time."


if i dont have 24 outputs how in the world can i get the stuff to the reel to MULTITRACK IT AND PROCESS EACH TRACK?




KELLY: i have ALL the songs sequenced. so we will be recording the song as is from the pc. intro,verse,chorus etc etc. its already laid out. so we wont be punching in and out from the board. only time that will happen is when we are concentrating on a certain instrument. some people record a 5 minute beat and punch in and out of the instruments from the mixer. thats not the case in this situation. i am considering to mix it from the pc and dumping it on reel. however i will be skipping the whole multitrack process and thats NOT what i want to do. its an experience thing with me. the engineer doesnt know my programs either and i want him to mix it so you can see why im hell bent on multitracking it and having him mix it. 2 or so years vs 9 or so years. big difference. using a different application will solve the problem.



thanx kelly thanx regbro thanx sonus and thanx hixmix. i DO appreciate your help and concerns



czar


ps all help will still be awarded ;)
 
Damn! I've been found out. You are right. I don't know what I'm talking about. AD, DA, sync, don't ask me.
I'll refrain from any further comments. I'm now going to phone Martin and inform him he owns Mix, I think someone forgot to tell him.
 
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