About crossfades and Punch ins

[Robert D]

So let's take the typical singer/songwriter, who's main instrument is either guitar or keyboards. They also can "play" several other instruments, but have put the majority of their time in their main instrument, as I think most musicians should, least they never be "good" at any one thing. So, they develop some decent recording/production chops, and then have at their disposal the means to fully assemble and record their compositions. However, while they masterfully perform and record their main instrument, "some assembly is required" for some instrument parts which they are not as proficient at. Is that wrong? Must one be a one take master of all things to support the one thing they profess to be good at?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

So let's take the typical singer/songwriter
...
Must one be a one take master of all things to support the one thing they profess to be good at?

I don't understand where it's written that the singer/songwriter must perform every instrument themselves, or that even if they did, that it's a good idea. No they don't have to be masters at all instruments, they don't have to be masters at *any* instruments whatsoever.

The right tool for the right job. Do you need a drum track? Are you someone who self-admittedly "sucks" at the drums? Then the right tool for the job is to get a drummer who actually can cover the fundamentals. Anything less is just hurting your production.

Now, if you're just making a demo or proof-of-concept recording, then no, you don't need Steve Gadd to lay down the hits. But if that's all you're making, a drum machine will be far more efficient.

What I find interesting is how drums are considered to be the instrument that everybody can play, as opposed to, say, the saxophone. The idea that just because anybody can swing a stick that they can play drums is just as ridiculous as saying that because they can breathe that they can play the saxophone. No one is clamoring for a copy of Saxogog. They know that if you want a sax track, you really should have a sax player and not try and kludge it yourself. It should be no different for drums.

G.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

So let's take the typical singer/songwriter, who's main instrument is either guitar or keyboards. They also can "play" several other instruments, but have put the majority of their time in their main instrument, as I think most musicians should, least they never be "good" at any one thing. So, they develop some decent recording/production chops, and then have at their disposal the means to fully assemble and record their compositions. However, while they masterfully perform and record their main instrument, "some assembly is required" for some instrument parts which they are not as proficient at. Is that wrong? Must one be a one take master of all things to support the one thing they profess to be good at?

EXACCCCTLLYYY!

I don't create Frankenstein recordings. If some of you don't believe me check out some of my tunes, you can always tell when it's autotuned and punched like crazy. Just listen to any modern day rock recording. www.myspace.com/danieljamessmall

The problem is that it's not easy to get a drummer (who needs to commit to a song) to actually spend the kind of time learning and perfecting someone else's tune "just for a demo" or for "fun". Sometimes it works out, but for me trying to finish two CD's ,I have to rely on myself. I use a drummer when I can, but when I can't get one or when that drummer has a great idea but doesn't have the time to perfectly master the execution, well then that's when the crossfades come into play.

I have played drums straight through on a few solid recordings. But usually I just don't even try to lay drums down because it's too difficult to make it all the way through without SOMETHING happening. It could be a mis placed kick, or maybe a I drop a stick. Whatever the reason, I am not a drummer plain and simple. My studio is my basement, and my musicians are usually me, myself, and I. Once a week I have other guys come by, but the ratio goes like this. Out of 52 days of recording (once a week for a year), I get a competent drummer maybe 5/52. I get songwriters 52/52, that can include guitars, bass, vocals, and piano. So you see my problem? And during those times that I do have company, we usually work on their music because they only have limited access to my studio, whereas I am there all the time.

This isn't a band on my part, it's just a musicians hangout. And most of us don't play drums. At least not as good as a straight up drummer.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Then the right tool for the job is to get a drummer who actually can cover the fundamentals. Anything less is just hurting your production.

Now, if you're just making a demo or proof-of-concept recording, then no, you don't need Steve Gadd to lay down the hits. But if that's all you're making, a drum machine will be far more efficient.

What I find interesting is how drums are considered to be the instrument that everybody can play, as opposed to, say, the saxophone. The idea that just because anybody can swing a stick that they can play drums is just as ridiculous as saying that because they can breathe that they can play the saxophone. No one is clamoring for a copy of Saxogog. They know that if you want a sax track, you really should have a sax player and not try and kludge it yourself. It should be no different for drums.

G.

www.myspace.com/jvrbagginsyahoocom

Listen to Baggins ditty, or Long Time Comming. I played drums for him on those two tracks, because no one else was around and I was confident I could do it. They are both one take, no punch tracks. I treat drums like anything else, I try if I think I can do it.

 

[Robert D]

Somewhere along the line, this thread became completely divorced from reality. The reality is that most of our favorite records took months to make, weeks or months to record. The "pros" on those records, the ones who "practice till they can't get it wrong" should, by the dictates of the second half of this thread, have nailed the whole record in one take, done in a day.

Just because a someone can't nail a one take perfectly every time doesn't mean they suck at drums. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna use a drum machine on anything, thank you. I don't make music that way, not even at the composing stage.

So, we need a pro drummer, and of course that means we better get a pro in for every other instrument, and a pro engineer, and....... wait, what was the name of this BBS?

 

[RAMI]

I've been playing drums for 1000 years, I sill have to punch in once in a while instead of re-doing a whole song just so that I can say I did it all in one take.
Pro singers, bass players, guitarists and vocalists punch in all the time. I understand that the GOAL is alwyas a perfect take, but let's be realistic here. Everyone who records should know HOW to do a punch-in and I think the original poster was trying to just get more informed on that aspect of recording.

I'd be worried and a little sceptical if someone ever told me "I don't even know how to do a punch-in. I always start over until I get it perfect in 1 take".

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I played drums for him on those two tracks, because no one else was around and I was confident I could do it. They are both one take, no punch tracks. I treat drums like anything else, I try if I think I can do it.

Undergrnd, please note that I said a while back - or at least I thought I did, but now I can't find it - that I had no idea if what I was saying about where the line is drawn between polishing a drum track and creating a Frankenstein track actually applied to your specific case or not. All I had to go on what that you yourself said that you sucked at drums. When I read that, the only thing I could think of was, "then why the hell are you recording yourself playing them?" Now I see that you were being a bit more self-depricating than anything else. Please don't take my POV as a personal attack.

It's more of a commentary on those multitudes in the home recording community who think the recording comes before the performance and that the purpose of recording gear is to fix lousy performances. Every time I see a thread where somebody asks how to make their snare or kick hits sound even, it make me want to tear my hair out and scream, "Learn how to hit the damn drums before you hit the record button, you idiot." I mean, come on. The inability to hit a snare drum with some modicum of consistancy in force is as inexcusable IMHO as the inability to keep a steady rhythm. It's a *basic fundamental* skill of playing the drums, and if one can't do it, they are not yet a drummer, let alone one who should be trying to lay their stuff down on tape for anything more than pure fun.

I'm not saying that one has to be a "professional", or that they can't make an occasional mistake. I'm just saying that they should know how to play the instrument. And being unable to keep a beat or to hit the drum with the same velocity more than three times in succession is not knowiing how to play an instrument in the same way that not being able to play an Am chord on the guitar is not knowing yet how to play the guitar. You don't have to be a pro to play the chord, but you do have to know how to play the chord.

Instead, there is this mentality of I don't have to learn how to play, I'll just fix it in the mix. Then when they find out that mixing is more than just laying compressed tracks on top of one another, then it's fix the mix in the master time. And now things are all turned around backwards where we have a bunch of people trying to use their finalizers and MBCs to fix a bad mix that was originally intended to try and fix a bad performance. And they come on here and wonder why their stuff doesn't sound like the Black Album. Which leads me to...

wait, what was the name of this BBS?

Ah, yes, the old "this is only Home Recording" argument. Fine. I have no problem with that. Recording at home for hobby purposes is a great thing, and no one needs to be the next Steve Gadd or SRV or Bob Dylan to do that and have a great experience doing so.

The problem is that as soon as one asks "how do I get my mix to sound like the pros", it is no longer home recording that's being desired. It's pro recording that's being asked about and shot for. And 90% of those coming to this "home recording" are indeed shooting for - even expecting - to get results that sound like the pros. So let's not even bother with the "this is only home recording" dodge, because 9 times out of 10 it's not. It's someone expecting and desiring a pro recording...or at least something close to it.

And that'll never happen if the musicianship is not there to begin with.

G.

 

[danny.guitar]

I'd be worried and a little sceptical if someone ever told me "I don't even know how to do a punch-in. I always start over until I get it perfect in 1 take".

Actually, up until recently I didn't know how to do punch-ins in Reaper and when I used Audition I could never get them to sound natural, so I usually did just do take after take until it was good enough. Which sucks, a lot.

Sometimes I can play it perfectly other times I need to do a bunch of takes. What really sucks is when you're at the end of the song and you hit a wrong note or something and it fucks the whole thing up. Worrying about this while recording really messes with the performance cause you're worried about hitting a wrong note and having to start all over.

Anyway, now that I know how to use them I definitely won't hesitate to do a couple of punch-ins if I have to.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Undergrnd, please note that I said a while back - or at least I thought I did, but now I can't find it - that I had no idea if what I was saying about where the line is drawn between polishing a drum track and creating a Frankenstein track actually applied to your specific case or not. All I had to go on what that you yourself said that you sucked at drums. When I read that, the only thing I could think of was, "then why the hell are you recording yourself playing them?" Now I see that you were being a bit more self-depricating than anything else. Please don't take my POV as a personal attack.

It's more of a commentary on those multitudes in the home recording community who think the recording comes before the performance and that the purpose of recording gear is to fix lousy performances. Every time I see a thread where somebody asks how to make their snare or kick hits sound even, it make me want to tear my hair out and scream, "Learn how to hit the damn drums before you hit the record button, you idiot." I mean, come on. The inability to hit a snare drum with some modicum of consistancy in force is as inexcusable IMHO as the inability to keep a steady rhythm. It's a *basic fundamental* skill of playing the drums, and if one can't do it, they are not yet a drummer, let alone one who should be trying to lay their stuff down on tape for anything more than pure fun.

I'm not saying that one has to be a "professional", or that they can't make an occasional mistake. I'm just saying that they should know how to play the instrument. And being unable to keep a beat or to hit the drum with the same velocity more than three times in succession is not knowiing how to play an instrument in the same way that not being able to play an Am chord on the guitar is not knowing yet how to play the guitar. You don't have to be a pro to play the chord, but you do have to know how to play the chord.

Instead, there is this mentality of I don't have to learn how to play, I'll just fix it in the mix. Then when they find out that mixing is more than just laying compressed tracks on top of one another, then it's fix the mix in the master time. And now things are all turned around backwards where we have a bunch of people trying to use their finalizers and MBCs to fix a bad mix that was originally intended to try and fix a bad performance. And they come on here and wonder why their stuff doesn't sound like the Black Album. Which leads me to...
Ah, yes, the old "this is only Home Recording" argument. Fine. I have no problem with that. Recording at home for hobby purposes is a great thing, and no one needs to be the next Steve Gadd or SRV or Bob Dylan to do that and have a great experience doing so.

The problem is that as soon as one asks "how do I get my mix to sound like the pros", it is no longer home recording that's being desired. It's pro recording that's being asked about and shot for. And 90% of those coming to this "home recording" are indeed shooting for - even expecting - to get results that sound like the pros. So let's not even bother with the "this is only home recording" dodge, because 9 times out of 10 it's not. It's someone expecting and desiring a pro recording...or at least something close to it.

And that'll never happen if the musicianship is not there to begin with.

G.

I see, and I understand your position. I actually completely agree as well. We weren't on the same page. I am not one of the fix it in the mix guys that doesn't actually know how to play. I am from the old school of learn it and do it right, my comments about using crossfades in drum tracks stems from me NEVER using punch ins EVER on a drum track. Even if it was just one small mis hit cymbal, I had to do the whole track over again. I would end up with nothing at the end of the night because I couldn;t repair the best take. I couldn't figure out how to seamlessly punch in and out on an ambient (meaning cymbal ring) instrument like drums. Now I know how thanks to you guys.

 

[Robert D]

Which leads me to...
Ah, yes, the old "this is only Home Recording" argument. ........
So let's not even bother with the "this is only home recording" dodge, because 9 times out of 10 it's not. It's someone expecting and desiring a pro recording...or at least something close to it.

G.

Common Glen, you passed up my real argument and went to the aside at the end. That's dodging!

I get your point (MrFace's point to begin with), but I don't get how it was applied to this thread. First it was any use of a MBD is evil, now it's any use of a crossfade is evil?

 

[RawDepth]

Hey Underground,

Go to the Multitrack Preferences dialog box and turn on "Auto Zero-cross Edits." According to the help file this causes Adobe Audition to "adjust the beginning and end points of all copy, cut, and paste operations to the nearest place where the waveform crosses the centerline."

I don't know if it works for punch-ins too but give it a try. It may help to eliminate clicks at the edit butt points.

Hope this helps.
RawDepth

 

[mrface2112]

I get your point (MrFace's point to begin with), but I don't get how it was applied to this thread.

the point in the first place, was that the original poster made it sound like he was a completely crappy drummer who couldn't get through a take without screwing up and wanted to use the computer to "fix" the problems. at least, that's what i initially took out of it.

the age-old response to that is "get a good drummer who CAN play the part" or at minimum, practice it until you can do it. i mean, i don't want an autoshop student doing the brakejob on my truck, do you?

see, i can't play piano very well--but i can play ok. so i do it where i can.....but if/when i have a piano part that needs skills more than mine can account for, i'll get someone who CAN play it. and that's assuming that lots of practice can't get me there. more often than not, i can practice the part for a few days and get it there. that's why it's called practice. i sound like Allen Iverson.....we're talkin bout PRACTICE.

since the original post, it's come out that he *can* play the parts sometimes (and i'd still recommend more practice ), and that he was just looking for information on how to best conceal a punch-in with the drums.

doing that is very difficult. drums are NOT EASY to punch in. it takes a good drummer who can balance the kit very well and ensure that the snare hits from the take prior to the punch are at the same level as the ones post punch, b/c otherwise it'll be noticible (or it'll just sound like a very inconsistent drummer, which may be a problem anyway). you've got issues making sure the snare is at the same pitch, the toms are still in tune, you name it. punching in drums can suck VERY MUCH.

couple in the time spent doing the actual edits across 8, 10, 12 (whatever number of) drum tracks, the crossfades at the zero points which will NOT line up across all the tracks, etc.....you may end up burning more time than it takes to just learn to play the part right the whole way through (or get someone who can).

SURE we all punch in. i do it ALL THE TIME. there's no harm in that at all. so please don't misunderstand that.

my point was simply that with drums--and especially with a not very adept drummer--99% of the time it is simply sonically better to play the part in one take. it just plain sounds better, you waste less time dicking around with edits and thanks to the practice, you get more proficient at the instrument.

anyway, aren't we looking for the solution that will SOUND the BEST? if so, i guess i fail to see how my point wasn't relevant to the thread. unless of course, making a recommendation of "how bout you practice?" is an unwelcome one. in that case,


cheers,
wade

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

First it was any use of a MBD is evil, now it's any use of a crossfade is evil?

No no no no no no no. I have never taken either position. (I assume you accidentally made a simple typo and you're talking MBC's BTW. )

Real quick, I never said that MBCs or any use of them was evil. What I said was that phoning it in on the mixing stage with the intent of using an MBC to do the mixing for you after the fact was...well, maybe not quite evil (though close )...but certainly bad technique with no tangible positives. It's just not a good idea when compared to the alternative of actually learning how to mix.

And here, if you go back and re-read my post, I never said that punches or crossfades, or editing in general were evil, or even anything close to it, and that sure, even the best artists these days will receive the occasional punch, and that's perfectly fine. What I did say was that when the use of such editing moves from the polishing stage to the creation stage - when someone keeps an intentionally bad performance with the intent of Frankensteining it into something palatable, when the final performance that's heard is more the performance of the engineer than it is of the musician* - that qualifies as an abuse of the technology that will cause more suffering than it will enhancement to the final production.

These subjects have a common theme. It's the same theme that's often heard in discussions on tools such as Melodyne, Drumagog, and (dare I say it?) Har-Bal. None of these tools, including MBCs, NLEs and old-fashon punch-ins or tape splices, are inherantly "evil";they all have their worthy uses (yes, even Har-Bal.) The common theme, though, is when such tools are seen as a substitute for actual technique or - at the extreme - craftsmanship. The attitude that one doesn't have to learn how to track, or how to mix, or how to sing, or how to play an instrument, because they have a machine that they mistakenly think will take care of that for them, THAT is the real evil here.

These are tools meant to assist and enhance technique, not replace it.

*Before those like Noisewreck jump on me for being anti-creative engineering, I'm not. I'm all for the engineer-as-artist and synthesizing performances as an artform in and of itself. I love playing with that stuff myself when I get a chance. But there's a big difference IMHO between creating a performance and substituting for lack of performance. I'm all for the former, but have big problems with the later.

G.

 

[noisewreck]

I say, if you're good at the keyboard but suck at the drums, use good samples, and bang it out on the keys like this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ddb2SVzyIs

 

[noisewreck]

*Before those like Noisewreck jump on me for being anti-creative engineering, I'm not. I'm all for the engineer-as-artist and synthesizing performances as an artform in and of itself. I love playing with that stuff myself when I get a chance. But there's a big difference IMHO between creating a performance and substituting for lack of performance. I'm all for the former, but have big problems with the later.

G.

That makes perfect sense I still think you sound old

As someone who has practiced for countless hours (at one point I used to practice close to 8 hours a day while other kids were out playing) you won't hear an argument against getting it right in the performance from me.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I still think you sound old.

And I still think that's a compliment .

I hated to single you out in the postscript. but I happened to know you to be heavily into the edit, process, bend, fold and mutilate to your heart's content in a positive way to creat cool and novel sounds. I just wanted to avoid the misunderstanding that I'm not all over that, because I am. But that's a different thing than what I was talking about here is all.

And I agree that the MIDI approach is a great solution. I didn't think of that here...I must be getting old...

G.

 

[noisewreck]

And I still think that's a compliment

More of a friendly jab

Naaa man, it's all good. I knew exactly what you meant. And you're right, I do have the mentality of the studio-as-an-instrument.

 

[crosstudio]

pardon my audacity for a moment but:
punch-ins are for suckers who think they are still in the reel-to-reel world with a limited number of tracks to work with and difficult editing without splicing and audio loss.

why punch in? why not just have a new track and comp the best parts? even if it is just one part you are 'fixing' why punch-in and take the risk of screwing up the original take? God forbid you should hit CTRL-S instead of CTRL-Z and can't undo your accident.

 

[legionserial]

why punch in? why not just have a new track and comp the best parts? even if it is just one part you are 'fixing' why punch-in and take the risk of screwing up the original take? God forbid you should hit CTRL-S instead of CTRL-Z and can't undo your accident.

Don't punch in's just overlay another audio file over the top of the original? It's completely non-destructive. It doesn't affect the original audio file. If you screw it up, even if you press ctrl+s in the process, you can just delete the punch-in's audio file and start again. Or at least that's how it works for me anyway.

 

[RAMI]

Don't punch in's just overlay another audio file over the top of the original? It's completely non-destructive. It doesn't affect the original audio file. If you screw it up, even if you press ctrl+s in the process, you can just delete the punch-in's audio file and start again. Or at least that's how it works for me anyway.

That is how it works. I think "someone" just wanted call people "suckers" for no good reason.