A Suitable Notebook For Recording?

[dgatwood]

Also, USB 2.0 intefaces can handle 8 or more simultaneous inputs and unlike Firewire they do not normally experience compatibilty problems with different chipsets.

That last one I disagree with. There are a heck of lot more completely broken USB audio devices than completely broken FireWire devices. If you limit yourself to carefully chosen USB devices, they will generally work well, but that's also true for FireWire devices.

USB devices DO have compatibility problems with certain motherboard chipsets. They aren't compatibility issues with the USB chipsets themselves because there are only a handful of USB cell designs out there and everybody just stamps them onto silicon. That said, the chipset compatibility problems that most commonly afflict USB interfaces are caused by board manufacturers getting the IRQ steering entirely wrong and making the USB ports share an interrupt with the wireless card or the graphics card under the assumption that nobody will be doing anything with USB that requires low latency. It's still a problem of compatibility with a given motherboard chipset, though.

USB also has a pretty significant disadvantage over FireWire for audio purposes because it doesn't have DMA and doesn't support DCL programs. DMA allows hard drives to write data directly to RAM without using the CPU. DCL programs allow the FireWire chipset to control an audio device and copy audio chunks into a buffer without using the CPU. Both of these can significantly affect track count. The higher the channel count on the interface(s) and/or track count streaming to/from an external hard drive, the more USB taxes the CPU.

As for where FireWire becomes necessary, I tend to think of USB as being usable up to about four channels. There are interfaces that will do 8, but these devices are VERY bad. The USB standards for USB 2.0 audio devices were just finalized a few months ago and NONE of the devices on the market (at least as of June) are compliant with that specification.

That means that any 8-channel USB audio device conforms to the USB 1.1 audio specification but uses a high speed bus. The Apple USB audio driver engineers refer to these things as "Frankenstein devices". They're a gross violation of the USB specification, and in terms of long-term compatibility, you should avoid these devices if at all possible. In a year or two, that may change, but right now, proper USB 2.0 audio silicon just isn't out there.

 

[Hot Rats]

The more I read about this the more confused I get.

I'm trying to decide between a USB device (like the fast Track Ultra 8), or putting a 6 pin Firewire card in an express card slot.

I would prefer 6 pin because the device I looked at (m-audio Firewire) runs on bus power with 6pin.

I feel like that bloke "Dave" in the Fast Show who changes his mind every time someone givesd him an opposing argument....I keep oscillating wildly between USB and Firewire!

And then I have to choose a Laptop! I'll be here all year....

 

[shockingcandy]

As for where FireWire becomes necessary, I tend to think of USB as being usable up to about four channels. There are interfaces that will do 8, but these devices are VERY bad. The USB standards for USB 2.0 audio devices were just finalized a few months ago and NONE of the devices on the market (at least as of June) are compliant with that specification.

I'm sorry but that is utter rubbish. Have you actually tried any or are you just repeating what you've read elsewhere? I've actually recorded 14 inputs @ 24bit / 96kHz continuously for over an hour without a single glitch.

These are exactly the kind of myths and mis-information I am talking about.

 

[dgatwood]

I'm sorry but that is utter rubbish. Have you actually tried any or are you just repeating what you've read elsewhere? I've actually recorded 14 inputs @ 24bit / 96kHz continuously for over an hour without a single glitch.

I never said you couldn't make it work. I said that the USB audio class specification version 2.0 is not supported by ANY of the silicon in devices that are actually on the market yet. Using USB 1.1 descriptors with a USB 2.0 bus is a violation of the spec, therefore ALL audio devices that require USB 2.0 levels of throughput are, by definition, not fully compliant with the USB specification. Thus, beyond about four channels, you're guaranteed to be using a device that is egregiously violating the spec. It's that simple.

In the long term, that's likely to come back and bite you in the ass. Where possible, unless there is a damn good reason to buy a device that isn't class compliant, you are always better off buying a device that is. A couple of the USB silicon vendors have started making proper USB 2.0 silicon (within the last few months), but unless a manufacturer has started shipping products with those chips in the last month or so, none of them are on the market yet. If you wait a year, the new USB 2.0 audio interfaces they will be introducing by that time should be class compliant (but then again, I said that last year and the USB spec maintainers managed to drag their heels long enough to prove me wrong).

The way I look at it is this: with non-class-compliant audio devices, you're stuck using the vendor's drivers forever and ever. If the vendor goes under or decides to stop supporting the device, you're stuck with a useless brick. With class-compliant audio devices, the vendor driver or control panel is only needed for special features (if that), and you aren't depending at all on their (usually poorly written) drivers; if the company goes under, the device will still be supported for years to come. I've made that mistake with devices before. In the long term (and often in the medium term), it pays to wait a little longer for class-compliant hardware.

Or buy a FireWire interface.

 

[shockingcandy]

I really couldn't care less if the device is "class compliant" or not, only if it works. It seems unlikely that Avid or Tascam are suddenly going to go out of business but should the unexpected happen I have the original / installation disc not to mention a downloaded .exe of the latest drivers.

What you actually said was "There are [USB] interfaces that will do 8, but these devices are VERY bad.". That is a very bold statement to make without first qualifying it. Whilst I am sure there are some USB devices that are less than perfect the same could be said of any other mass-produced product don't you think, including Firewire devices?

In my original post I stated that "USB 2.0 intefaces can handle 8 or more simultaneous inputs and unlike Firewire they do not normally experience compatibilty problems with different chipsets.". At no point did I state that there are not other issues (e.g. IRQ conflicts) that can throw a spanner in the works. However, these can equally apply to Firewire devices, especially since the lack of native TI chipsets means many laptops DAWs are forced to use ExpressCard Firewire adaptors.

But whether USB 2.0 is technically as good as Firewire is a moot point IMO as long as it works. I have proof it does.

 

[dgatwood]

What you actually said was "There are [USB] interfaces that will do 8, but these devices are VERY bad.". That is a very bold statement to make without first qualifying it. Whilst I am sure there are some USB devices that are less than perfect the same could be said of any other mass-produced product don't you think, including Firewire devices?

I explained why I dislike these devices in the very next sentence....

However, these can equally apply to Firewire devices, especially since the lack of native TI chipsets means many laptops DAWs are forced to use ExpressCard Firewire adaptors.

But they don't apply equally to FireWire devices. I've seen a lot more people with USB audio problems than FireWire audio problems, and that's even after adjusting for the larger number of USB audio devices out there.

But whether USB 2.0 is technically as good as Firewire is a moot point IMO as long as it works. I have proof it does.

It's not a moot point at all. USB has slightly higher latency than FireWire, has higher rates of problems, and uses more CPU (which translates to lower maximum track counts). Those are all measurable quantitative reasons why FireWire is better. The fact that it works for you with your machine is anecdotal, and thus is not a good metric for answering whether someone else should buy FireWire or USB.