A story about what to buy

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Chris Fallen

Chris Fallen

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So I've been wading through the 'mixing/mastering' and 'computer recording and soundcards' forums for a while, trying to decide what would work best for me for the next two years while I go to college. I just want to have a basic set up that I can learn things on, but I want it to be decent so when I learn things I can still use it instead of wanting to upgrade. I've posted numerous topice (which I'm sure you've noticed), and I've come to a conclusion as to what to get.. That's happened about five times. I'm going to go through each choice that I was going to make, and then tell you guys my final conclusion. I hope this'll help out some other people that are wondering about these choices, because even if you search and search, you never really get a good compilation of information about all of these. And for the old timers (in the recording front, not in age), let me know what you think and correct anything I get wrong. Thanks.

I started out buying a Tascam 424 MKIII a few months ago. I wanted to record so I just bought something off of ebay to use. I decided that I wanted to start using my computer after that, and then decided that I needed a new soundcard, then I decided that I wanted a nice big multiple input soundcard, then that I wanted a mixer with that.. etc.. etc.. Here are my three main choices that I came to after I read through these forums:

Mixer + Soundcard

This started off on me wanting to buy the best things so they'd last me a long time. We all know how it goes. I was going to get a Delta 1010 and a Mackie board.

I started out looking at soundcards. Delta 1010s are the standard for soundcards, now. I also checked out the Aardvark Q10 and the C-port. The Aardvark has little to no drivers if you're working on XP, so I ruled that out almost right away. The c-port just didn't get too much talk, so I decided that I wanted to go for the Delta 1010. I noticed right away, though, that there were no XLR inputs, just 1/4 inch ones. That would mean that I'd need mic pres or a mixer to get those in.

After multiple questions about which boards are better, people opened my eyes to the wide world of 'behringers suck.' I never planned on getting one anyway. Then I was going to purchase a Mackie before everyone told me that they're 'decent, but you could do better for that price.' It turns out everyone's sweet spot came on when mentioning Soundcraft or Allen/Heath mixers. Better EQ. Better Pres. Better everything, from the majority.

So far, the price for what I want is (750+550) $1300.


I've read and read about these over and over, and just recently made the discovery that, unless I'm recording drums, that I wouldn't need more than one input at a time to record the guitar or vocals. I pushed the images of me wielding big, cool equipment (with lots of buttons) on them out of my head and looked for something else. Something with a few ins, and some pres for my mics.

Soundcard + Mic Pres

I decided that all I really need is one or two mics at a time, so if I picked up an Audio Buddy and a Mia or Delta 66 (or something to that effect), that I could save a lot of money and still do what I want over the next few years and with the same specs (24-bit/96kHz).

With this recent discovery of not owning flashy things just to own flash things I saved nearly 900 dollars (200-300 Mia-Delta66 + 79 audio buddy = $300-400) .

I was pretty adamant on buying these two or three items, leaving me money for better cords/mics, and then I realized that if I ever wanted to record a full drum set, I'd need around eight tracks (snare/kick/hi-hat/tom1/tom2/floortom/2overheads). Now in order to do this, I would need eight ins to my computer to record these all multi-track. This brings me to my conclusion.

Soundcard with built in pres

So I end up with an original contender that I bounced out long ago. I think I'm going to end up going for the Aardvark Q10. It has eight pres that I hear are pretty good. I just will need to get around the whole 'doesn't work on windows xp' thing. It has phantom power, for my condensers, and it has inserts and moniter outs. It won't force me to buy a mixer or seperate pres. Woo hoo.


There is my story. Haha. Correct me and tell me how wrong I am before I buy!

Christopher
 
I want you to buy that Q10 and then tell me how it works. You can be my guinea pig. ;)
 
I'll let you know, but since I don't have any experience with anything else... I'm not sure how great my review will be.

Christopher
 
Well, it seems that the actual hardware should be of good quality. My only concern is drivers, or the lack thereof.
 
Yeah, I hear that they have beta for XP, and by the time I buy one it should be out. If not, I can always go back to 2000 or nt or whatever it supports.

Christopher
 
similar path - different conclusion

Chris,
thanks for your summary. I so much relate to your experience :-)

I was going down a VERY similar road over the last 2 weeks. Looking atthe 24/96 first, then ruling in and out the Q10, switching to D-1010 ...

Here's an excerpt from my story:

I will mainly record keyboard and voice (+ maybe a second vocal). So I need at least 4 inputs. Adding to this the occassional guitar-playing friend I realized I needed 8 inputs ...

It took me quite a while to stumble over the names ST Audio and RME but they changed my perspective quick dramatically. ST Audio has it's System III: 8 I/O with pre-amps - however, with EXCELLENT AD converters (Chrystal) which are better than the AKM used by the D-1010. Moreover, it turned out that the D-1010 had absolutely horrible routing options for my needs.
What I realized I wanted (and I think probably everyone wants) is this:

I want to record keyboard (stereo), two vocals and one guitar. However, I wantto be able to give each of the players a different mix on their headsets while recording (I want my keyboard and voice to dominate), my wife wants here voice louder then mine ...

It turned out that both the System III and the RME Hammerfall DSP Multiface are able to do this. The Multiface has a 720 channel mixer ! Means, I can create a mix of inputs 1-5 and put it on output 1/2 ... and at the same time creat a completely differnt mix of inputs 1-5 for output 1/2 ... all WITHOUT changing the recording levels.
The System III also allows me to assign each input to different outputs at a time, however, all have to have the same level.
Further points speaking for these cards were (especially for the Multiface): extremely low latency, extremely good AD-converters
+ the System III has even high-quality pre-amps (which are certainly on the levele of the Q-10)

Unfortunately, the System II will be discontinued with the introduction of its successor (DSP3000 or System3000 ... name isn't decided yet).

So, there I was, facing around $900 for the System III and the same for the Multiface.

Then I thought, why have 8 pre-amps if I only 1-2 at a time. Hoping for the release of the SP VTB-1 or the FMR pre-amp, I should be possible to get high-quality pre-amps under $300 ...

I'm very certain that my road is leading me towards the Multiface and separate pre-amps so I can be assured of very high quality. If, on the other hand, you want an all-in-one solution, I would at least consider the System III. It costs only little more than the Q-10 but has certainly better converters, better routing, and better OS support ...

cheers ...
 
...

Of course you can use more inputs. More inputs = more flexibility. However, rather than having numerous inputs for even the unlikeliest of circumstances, it might pay to invest in fewer but higher quality signal chains. You can use as many mics as you want for the recording of a guitar ;-) ... but I guess most people will use one or two (for stereo) ....

I think it all comes down to your needs. However, it's not always easy to correctly predict what needs you might face some 5 months down the road. Hence, it's certainly smart to plan in a certain degree of expandability ....
 
Re: similar path - different conclusion

Does the System III work with just the top box or do you need both of the boxes combined to make it work? Just the top one is fine, and it's only $550. If I don't need the bottom, then I'd pick it up..

Christopher
 
Chris, I am fairly new to this, so take my comments with that in mind.

I just can't imagine mixing down 8 raw tracks of drums in a multitrack program. The monitoring system would have to be really good. Not to mention the cpu and hard drive usage needed for those 8, plus the other instruments / vocals. Perhaps I'm way off the mark on this.

I use a Delta 66 OmniStudio, which gives me 4 inputs, two with pre's and two line level. The two with pre's give me either XLR or 1/4" connections, which is very cool.

I use a (used) 16 channel stereo mixer, which I got very inexpensively, run the drums into that, pan them to taste, and run lineout (stereo, outputs panned hard left and right) to the line level in's on the Omni. Leaves me two preamped inputs for guitar/bass or vocals. The monitor out's on the Omni go to playback, either stereo amp/speakers for final mixdown, or to my P.A. for rough mix on drums before recording. I can apply effects to the drums through the mixer's effects loop if I wish, or the Omni's effects loop, which saves me processor over doing it on the pc.

The Omni was about $80 more than the Delta 66 alone, approx $400, but gave me those 2 pre's and whole lot of other things that would cost a lot to buy seperately. The mixer was approx. $250 with a roadcase. lol

One very cool thing about the Omni I don't see mentioned much, is the dual headphone outs. I can easily drive 4 (did 6 once) sets of headphones off those two, so I don't have to add a headphone amp to the list of things I need.

I figure that if I need to expand later on, I can add another Delta 66 or Omni 66 for another 4 inputs with the SPIF for sync'ing the cards.

I can't really comment on the other cards, how they compare, but my setup is working well for me, and was cheap for what it does.

Good luck in your choice

Tom
 
... Chris

It's funny that you're asking because I was thinking about the same question. The System III consists of three independent units sold together. If you only need one stereo output, you might want to just get the PCI card (DSP 24) and the AD converter (ADCIII). That gives you 8 inputs and 2 outputs ...

But consider this:
1) If you want to loop in an external effects processor, you might need more outputs. However, you don't have to buy the DA-module (DACIII) with its 8 analog outputs right away. You could just waituntil you really need it.
2) Buying the the three units(DSP24, ADCIII, DACIII) together(=SystemIII) might not be a lot more expensive than buying two units separately. But this of course depends on where you shop :-)

The new System3000 (or DSP3000) will be pretty exciting because it will have 8 peak meters on the front panel, new, even better pre-amps and effects inserts for each channel that you can decide to be pre- OR post- AD-conversion. Here's the only picture of the System3000 I found on the net:
http://www.netzmarkt.de/thomann/messe02spcl_st_audio_products.html

here are a few links to discussions about the System III. Not so many people have it, but I it's hard to find anyone who doesn't think it's a better card than the much admired D-1010.

http://www.audioforums.com/forums/Forum4/HTML/001867.html

http://www.audioforums.com/forums/Forum4/HTML/001868.html

http://www.audioforums.com/forums/Forum4/HTML/002579.html

Hope this helps
 
Mixing drums software/hardware

In response to Tom,

Tom, I find that it's quite possible to mix 8 drum tracks in software, but it's easier an often sounds alot better to use a hardware mixer. In reality I use a combination of both, I find this gives the best of both worlds.

I considering a new multi io soundcard so I shall follow this thread carefully :-)

Matt
 
Chris Fallen said:
After multiple questions about which boards are better, people opened my eyes to the wide world of 'behringers suck.'
Click to expand...

What were the reasons you were given? I have a Euro desk and I swear by it.
 
behringer mixers...

I've been hearing the thing too of Behringer mixers not being great, noisy, etc which has got me a little concerned. I thought my setup (Audiophile soundcard) I'd get the small 6 channel Behringer mixer (can't remember the model #). I was actually going to post something in the near future on whether I should get that 6 channel Behringer OR the Audio Buddy...looks like that might get answered within this post.
 
...

I just found the Hammerfall Multiface + PCI card for $755 at 8thstreetmusic.com ... this is amazing. I triple checked to make sure their price is right and I'm ordering as soon as I finish this message :-)
They sell the Mulitface for $495 ... while it sells for $725 at virtually all other shops I looked at (incl. Bayviewproaudio.com).

Anyways, just wantd to mention this because this brings the price down to exactly what you'd pay for a Q-10 ... just thatit doesn't have pre-amps.
 
Are the ST Audio cards that good? I kinda looked at the price of the C-Port and figured they must've cut corners somewhere to get the price that low, because it has everything I'm looking for. I realize the C-Port doesn't have the Crystal converters, but how would it compare, quality wise, with the 1010?

[edit]
Just noticed that none of the 1/4" jacks are unbalanced on the C-Port. How much of an issue is this?
 
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Re: ...

mcr said:

Anyways, just wantd to mention this because this brings the price down to exactly what you'd pay for a Q-10 ... just thatit doesn't have pre-amps.
Click to expand...

That just puts you in the same boat as buying a D-1010. You'll need to buy seperate preamps or a mixer. I'd love to do that, but that combined with a mixer will be over the 1000 point. Heh. Might just end up doing that if I get enough money.

About the behringer comment, it was mostly a joke. I've never heard one (and I probably wouldn't notice the difference if I did). I just said it because everyone on the board (except for you, of course) thinks they're horrid horrid creations. From what I hear, the preamps are noisy and the EQ is worth about as much as a sack of rocks, with the rocks having the upper hand.

I think I might settle for the ADCIII. It looks really nice, has eight preamps, phantom power, and the best part about it is I can spend 500 bucks on eight good preamps and then instead of selling and rebuying, I just buy add ons! Sounds good to me.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that if you have a problem with not being able to use outboard effects, just remember that you can always get the add ons that have more outputs OR since you're on a computer you can just use those. Woo hoo. This might finally be my pick. Upgradeable and cheap for the base unit.

Anyway. I'm off looking for pricing for it. I think the best I found was 450 or something...

Christopher
 
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Well, the only place I can find one of these is at Bayview. It's $592.92 total, when the tax is added. Right now they don't have them until 'mid march,' so if you put one on order the it's pretty much like putting one on hold when they arrive. I ordered one, so hopefully in the next week or two I'll be getting it in the mail! Finally, I got something. Woo hoo. :)

Next step: Buying a Stuido Projects C1 for my first condensor mic.

Christopher
 
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Chris - let us know how it turns out for ya.

Basslord1124 - For what it's worth, here's a link to a review on the Behringer MX802A and the MX2004A in case you haven't read any reviews on these particular models.

Once you get to this web page, it's the 11th review down entitled 'Behringer Eurorack Mixers' and it's in 'pdf' file format.
It also compares the mx2004 to the Mackie 1402vlz concerning noise.

Behringer Reviews

Just thought I'd pass it along.
 
... Chris

... the only place I can find one of these is at Bayview. It's $592.92 total, when the tax is added. Right now they don't have them until 'mid march,' ...

Hi Chris,
$592.92 for what? It looks like you're referring to the ADCIII. If this is the case, I wanted to make sure you realize that you will need a PCI host card (DSP24) with the ADCIII in order to use it with your computer.

Other than that, I think it's a great choice. I just ordered the RME Multiface today, for a breathtaking $495 at 8thstreetmusic. But the System III would not make me less happy ... and the expandibility is a great plus.
 
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