a recording program for both mac and pc?

[penguin341]

I don't really know how to quote well but i'll try =)

>>his speaks more of your inability to use the OS than anything else.
No, he's right, I just tried changing my IP address on Win 2k. Start, settings, control panels, network and dial-up connections, Local Area Connection, properties, TCP/IP protocol properties. OSX: preferences, networking. If you can find a faster way on the pc, i'm all ears.

>>That's pretty funny. I bet you believe it too.
Why shouldn't he believe it? If you judge a processor only by mhz alone you are definetly not getting the fully picture. Although a 800 mhz G4 is probably not as fast as a 2 ghz pentium 4, it comes pretty darn close. You really like talking down to him to prove your point...

>>Again, it doesn't sound like you knew what you were doing.
Umm not all of the OS's problems can be tied to the users igorance. I have seen my fair share of blue screens of death when using 98 while doing menial tasks.

>>I suppose you have a link to back this up, right?
I'm pretty sure he's correct about this, but I don't know why you factored this into your argument against the OS / the platform. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2002/nf2002043_6046.htm

http://3dny.org/home.html <- apparently, the New York Association of 3D artists and animators disagrees with you... Who to trust, you or them?


You guys really like talking down to prove your points, but thats not really necessary. "You must just be dumb... heh heh"

EDIT: added some links to back up "ridiculous claims"

 

[penguin341]

Lets see, Win2k/XP are based on the NT platform which was originally based on Digital VMS and, you guessed it, UNIX!!!

But somewhere along the way, it went horribly wrong.

 

[penguin341]

Get over yourself, no one believes your ridiculous claims about your new toy. If you really want to impress us, go make some killer music with it. [/B]

Oooh you called it a toy, thus putting it down. Well done
Which ridiculous claims? That it's stable? That he is pleased with it? His facts may be off but none of his "claims" sound that ridiculous to me.

 

[N8theGr8]

if i want to change my IP on my mac, i can do it in 2 clicks. with the pc i have to spend forever searching around its horrible layout of menus and properties screens.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This speaks more of your inability to use the OS than anything else.

what now? i dont know how to change an IP address on the pc? of course i do. ive done it many times. and im telling you it takes forever to get there dammit! i know exactly where it is, and it is burried under a horrible layout that can only be designed by the wonderful company known as micro$oft. they steal. they cheat. they copy. nice company huh? dont take that crap they give you, they just want your money. (see last link...) sure, take that line and say "WELL MACS ARE EXPENSIVE!" wanna know why? lets see, microsoft slowly began to take over the market, and oh yeah, PC's use cheap parts! my Hewlett Packard's motherboard? made in mexico! my friend's gateway's motherboard? made in mexico!

check out penguin's links, apparently out of over 1600 of people who already own a pc 49% would like to switch to mac, and out of 1700 people, 61% said that if they were to make a new mac purchase it would be the new imac, i guess you're in the minority seeing it as a "toy." it takes up less space than any desktop pc i have ever seen, which is a real plus. i dont know of anyone who enjoys having a computer the size of a suitcase on or under their desk with clutters of wires everywhere. yes, the new imac lacks expandability. guess what? it isnt designed for that type of user. the computer is designed to handle all of your basic needs, and then some (which would include advanced video editing, dvd authoring, basic 3d graphics programs, and good gaming, though not for the hardcore gamers) the G4 towers are meant for the users who want to really take certain functions to the extreme like 3d graphics apps, gaming, and whadyaknow, AUDIO RECORDING! check it out here, as apple received a special technical award at the 2002 Grammy's.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020226/sftu119_1.html

"From the original Macintosh®, the first personal computer to include built-in audio capabilities, Apple has helped change the way music is written, recorded, mixed and enjoyed. Today's powerful Mac® and PowerBook® computers are the choice of recording professionals worldwide and Apple's innovative iTunes software and iPod portable digital music player are responsibly leading the digital music revolution."

"I'm not talking about some over-the-hill 1.6 GHz system (in the real world, we're beyond 2 GHz now)."

sigh. when will you people learn. penguin is right, if you think that you can compare the speed of a pc to a mac in terms of mhz, you are dead wrong. dont quote me on this, but in general, in terms of running 3d applications such as maya (used for creating the jaw-dropping visuals of Squaresoft's "Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within" for example), the mac's speed doubled is roughly equivalent to the pc's speed. and with the dual 1ghz G4 tower...hmm, that would put macs at about 4ghz? a computer's speed can be measured in gigaflops, a billion floating-point operations per second, and if you were to compare the gigaflop rating of the dual 1ghz G4 tower to a 2.2ghz or so pentium 4, or even a faster pc, i dont care how fast it is there is no such pc on this market today that will come close to the dual 1ghz G4's gigaflop count. (15 gigaflops per second) why does this count matter at all? it is the driving force behind all creative apps as Final Cut Pro 3, a very popular program used for pro-video editing.

for a few laughs: http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/patchsoft.shtml
so true.

oh, and elevate? how about when you make your response this time you actually use some facts or links to support your point rather than make drastic assumptions that i dont know how to use windoze? "i bet you believe it too" doesnt prove anything whatsoever, you are just stating your belief "i bet."

"Good grief! A well known fact? Why would 3D artists choose a platform with exorbitant hardware costs, inferior performance, no professional level 3D hardware, an unaccelerated UI, and slim software choices?"

again, you are wrong. check penguin's link. professional level 3d hardware? wrong. inferior performance? wrong. exorbitant hardware costs? the people who want to produce professional movies have that kind of money, why wouldnt they if they pay upwards of $8,000 for Maya? and yes, it is a well-known fact to those of us know about pro-3d artists who produce movies for hollywood. obviously, you dont.

 

[elevate]

No, he's right, I just tried changing my IP address on Win 2k...

Sounds like you know how to do it. Obviously you didn't have to "spend forever searching around its horrible layout of menus and properties screens." And yes there is a faster way to get to it. Start->settings->network & dialup connections->right click "properties" on the connection you want to modify. That's two clicks by my count.

If you judge a processor only by mhz alone you are definetly not getting the fully picture. Although a 800 mhz G4 is probably not as fast as a 2 ghz pentium 4, it comes pretty darn close.

I never said I was judging by clock speed alone. I'm not sure what your interpretation of "darn close" is, but it must be a pretty huge difference. Go here for more information.

but I don't know why you factored this into your argument

The argument was not against the platform, it was against what seems like BS to me.

I have seen my fair share of blue screens of death when using 98 while doing menial tasks.

I agree that Win98 isn't the most stable of operating systems, but from his posts it souned like he was using Windows XP. FYI - the Win98 blue screen is not a BSOD; BSOD's only occur on NT-based operating systems.

apparently, the New York Association of 3D artists and animators disagrees with you... Who to trust, you or them?

I didn't see any bold headlines proclaiming Mac as the ultimate 3D platform. Most major 3D art companies use either Linux, Irix, or NT/2k. Linux is also the OS of choice for render farms. There's no 3D hardware for Mac, and the only big 3D app for OSX (Maya), isn't even available in the full industrial strength version.

 

[N8theGr8]

give me a link to that "not available in industrial strength version" perhaps you are confused with the learning addition? the real version is quite expensive, and maybe "not available" to you means not finding it at your local compusa. again, the pros who need it most have the money for it.

and also, that link you provided doesnt prove anything. "these are some programs to compare macs and pcs" yep, so wheres your evidence?

the two clicks: when we mean 2 clicks to change the IP, we really MEAN two clicks. i just checked on this with my pc in XP, here's what windoze made me do: 1) start 2) control panel (it wont let you drag there, so 2 clicks) 3 and 4) double click on network connections 5) right click on the connection 6) select properties 7) click on down arrow to find TCP/IP 8) click on properties. that doesnt exactly seem like 2 in your book now does it? (if you click and then drag to properties or whatever, that doesnt count as a real click, sheesh. just look at next sentence) on mac OSX: click once on preferences. click again on networking. its that simple.

if i want to setup my pc as an ftp server? whoa! cant find it anywhere! im so lost. maybe ill check out micro$oft's "help" nope, not there. but they do tell me what ftp is! exactly what i need to know now! nope, i guess i need special software, and the ones i found werent free.
on mac: preferences, sharing, and check "allow FTP access"

 

[charger]

Well gee, that explains why all the FTP servers I connect to are running on the MacOS!

Really, this has gone from ignorant bragaddocio to mind-numbingly ridiculous. You would think that there was a right computer for every person, and it could be determined in this argument.

 

[elevate]

give me a link to that "not available in industrial strength version" perhaps you are confused with the learning addition? the real version is quite expensive, and maybe "not available" to you means not finding it at your local compusa. again, the pros who need it most have the money for it.

No, I'm not confused, and I'm well aware that it's expensive. From this link:

Available for Windows NT, Windows 2000 Professional, IRIX, and Linux.

that link you provided doesnt prove anything. "these are some programs to compare macs and pcs" yep, so wheres your evidence?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. You can't read a chart?...like this one:

You should be able to see a dual 1Ghz P3 easily besting a dual 800Mhz G4.

just checked on this with my pc in XP, here's what windoze made me do...

Yea yea yea. It is more steps in XP than in 2k, which is kinda lame IMO. But you can just go Start->Connect To->Show all connections (this is where they should list all available connections. Then you would right click and select properties on the connection you want to modify. I haven't uses OSX for more than a few minutes, but I didn't see a "Preferences" button on the desktop. Is there one? Anyway, you seem to have retracted from your 'why did they hide the network properties behind a maze of buttons and menus.' You are aware that you could place a shortcut to your network properties anywhere you see fit, right?

As to FTP serving, you got me there (you're using XP Home, right?). You could, if need be, download any of the free FTP server programs out there - they are available if you actually look. Of course if you have Windows 2000 or XP Pro, you do have FTP and HTTP serving built in.

[edit]
Just wanted to add that I really don't have anything against OS X (previous versions are another matter). OS X is ready for Maya, it's just the hardware it runs on is what is lacking, IMO.

 

[sonnylarsen]

To Change an IP address. (In XP)
Right click on "My Network Places", Properties
Right Click on "Local Area Connection", Properties
Highlight "Internet Protocol(TCP/IP)" Hit properties button
You may now type your new IP address.
I think that makes three clicks and a highlight.
Takes about 6 seconds or so.

Own your OS, don't let it own you.

*kicks back and lights a smoke*
*cough, cough*
*remebers he doesn't smoke*

 

[brzilian]

I find the comment about 3D artists truly ridiculous since I AM one and use PC's exclusively...

I'd stay with the PC anyday! Lets see, the Mac has Lightwave and Maya - thats basically it. On the PC side, we've got 3D Studio MAX, 3D Studio VIZ, Rhino, Lightwave, Maya, Alias Design Studio, Truespace, Lightscape. Cinema 4D...

Oh yeah, PC's run the higher end 3D modellling apps like Pro/E, Mechanical Desktop, Inventor, Solidworks, Catia...

If the MAC is so tough and the tool of choice for people working in 3D, why aren't these programs available for it as well?

 

[N8theGr8]

regarding ftp, apple makes setting up an ftp server so easy because, unlike microsoft, they care about their users. they know that many will be networking with pcs, and therefore the pcs can share files with the mac via ftp. windows 2000 had an appletalk protocol, but thats about it for m$'s attempts for helping out those who have a mac at home. microsoft has forced companies to make programs to fix this little problem, such as Dave, and pcmaclan.

elevate, no i cant see the chart. that is a broken link.
no benchmark program can accuratlly compare the speed of a mac's CPU to that of a pc's. They work entirely differently from one another. the mac specializes in floating-point operations, and that is clear by the 15gigaflop rating that the dual 1ghz G4 has.

brazilian: thats great you're a 3d artist and use a pc. the rest of hollywood thinks otherwise. i dare you to find a link to a site saying that that hollywood artists prefer pc's to macs.

 

[elevate]

elevate, no i cant see the chart. that is a broken link.

Actually it isn't, Geocities doesn't allow direct linking to images, but you should be able to find that chart from the link I gave earlier.

no benchmark program can accuratlly compare the speed of a mac's CPU to that of a pc's.

Actually you're wrong. Both platforms can run Linux and both can run the same compiled code. If you make the code small so it fits in the cpu's cache you get a pure cpu benchmark. For an example of this, go here. This is some Mac and PC geeks comparing some number crunching code on both platforms using various compilers.

the mac specializes in floating-point operations, and that is clear by the 15gigaflop rating that the dual 1ghz G4 has.

Do you even know what this means? For a comparison of floating point performance go here and tell me what you see. And before you retort with "this is a loaded benchmark," that ArsTestBench project is led by an ardent Mac user.

the rest of hollywood thinks otherwise. i dare you to find a link to a site saying that that hollywood artists prefer pc's to macs.

Shouldn't the fact that the biggest 3D app isn't available for a Mac OS be evidence enough?....or perhaps the lack of any professional level 3D hardware?...or perhaps that one of the premiere render apps, Pixar Renderman, is not available for any Mac OS? Macs have never been big players in the professional 3D arena, which up until four or five years ago was dominated by SGI.

 

[wyastarr]

Just Curious

Do you people have financial stakes in the Mac vs. PC thing?

If Macs gain users do you lose money?

If PCs squash Macs do you have to sell the second car?


I think the original question is interesting. Which software will support transfer from PC to Mac to PC to Mac, etc. (or, so I don't ruffle sensitive feathers, from Mac to PC to Mac to PC, etc.) the best?

I wouldn't mind being able to work on the odd mix while sitting on a plane with my company laptop and a decent pair of cans. It might even be worth the extra expense of purchasing a PC version.

And really, shouldn't the software come in both flavors? I'm buying it for me, not for my mac or my PC.

--C

Go BeOS!!! (Relax, just kidding. BeOS sucks and anyone who uses it is stupid and should die... Still kidding...)

 

[brzilian]

brazilian: thats great you're a 3d artist and use a pc. the rest of hollywood thinks otherwise. i dare you to find a link to a site saying that that hollywood artists prefer pc's to macs.

This is way to easy!! Do you research any of your claims???

Hollywood uses mostly SGI and Linux boxes - not Macs!


ILM - SGI
Pixar - SGI

I guess you missed that article about Shrek where they talked about their use of Linux boxes to do roughly 90% of the movie...

 

[N8theGr8]

alright, now that i can see the benchmarks, i would like you to note that the G4 CPU is old. It was introduced in 1999, whereas the Athlon XP and Pentium 4 cpu's are much newer, both introduced within the past year or so. And as we all know, just 2 years in the computing industry can make a huge difference.

 

[T.J.Hooker]

N8theGr8,
Apparently you "LOVE" your PC. Why else would you punish yourself in such a manner. If you feel you must do this, Why not just bag the PC CPU altogether, and get virtual PC. You can have both platforms on one real sharp, nice little space saving unit. Too bad you can't do that with a PC's. eh guys?

T.J.Hooker

 

[elevate]

And as we all know, just 2 years in the computing industry can make a huge difference.

This really only applies to x86 processors. You may have missed the part where Apple was stuck at 500mhz (I think that was the speed) for almost an entire year. Anyway, not all of those benchmarks have "old" G4's. Both the ArsTestBench tests have 1Ghz G4 results, the Lightwave test has a dual 800Mhz G4, the Cinebench test has a 1Ghz G4, the Mathmatica test has an 800Mhz G4, etc... Another thing to note is that while some of the tests don't feature the latest and greatest G4's, they also don't have the latest and greatest P4 or Athlon XP processors either.

And really, shouldn't the software come in both flavors? I'm buying it for me, not for my mac or my PC.

You would think so, and IIRC, apps that had versions for more than one platform included the other versions. That was before widespread piracy though, and I think software pilferage is the reason that the practice was stopped. Maybe if you contacted the company and pleaded your case they'd send you a disc....but probably not. Of course, if you use Pro Tools this isn't a problem.

 

[elevate]

Why not just bag the PC CPU altogether, and get virtual PC.

Wouldn't the performance hit be quite bad? How fast is direct hardware access while in emulation?

Too bad you can't do that with a PC's. eh guys?

Uh...why is that? Wasn't Virtual PC created because of a shortage of apps on the Mac platform? Why else would you run it?

 

[penguin341]

Seeing as this argument isn't going anywhere fast, let my just state my position. I prefer Mac OSX to any windows varient. From my experience, I find it faster, more stable, cleaner, easier to use, and better suited to my needs. I have nothing against PC hardware, just against Microsoft and their products, which I truly believe to be sub par. If I had a PC all to myself (the one in my house currently is not solely mine), I would either trash Windows instantly and install either Red Hat Linux / Madrake, or create some type of a Dual Booting system (just incase I wanted to play some TFC). Maybe you, as a 3D artist prefer PC's and thats good for you. I believe the point that Nate was making is that Macs ARE used for 3D rendering. Elevate, if you had looked at that link more carefully, you would find that the 3D NY association is based completely around the Mac platform. Obviously, many artists do prefer the mac for 3D art / animation just as I prefer the mac for my everyday use. If Macs were truly as horrendous as you claim, they wouldn't be used at all for any 3D work, yet I have found many places where Macs are used for 3D work. I however, do not use my Mac for 3D work and thus, I can't pose a complete argument for them. Do I think using a Mac has many advantages? Yes. Do I care if my 800 mHz G4 is supposedly slower than your 2.2 ghz pentium 4? No. Do I care if you prefer using a PC? No.

Thanks for your time

EDIT: sorry elevate, I corrected the rendering mistake.

 

[charger]

I love the part where he can finally see the benchmark, and even though it shows a (currently) $600 Athlon 1533 absolutely creaming a (currently) $1800 867 Mhz G4, he claims that it's "not the latest processor." As if stacking a 1 GHz G4 against a 2.4 GHz P4, or an Athlon 2100+, the results would be more favorable to Apple.

The processor speed argument is always a nigthtmare with mac faithful. First they had to deal with Steve Jobs not putting out any new processors for almost 2 years, then they found that the only benchmark they could truly fall back on was the marketing crutch of "gigaflops." It sucks to spend so much for a computer and get such low performance in the bargain...

...but at least you can turn it into an FTP server ten minutes faster!