A question for the Portastudio experts

[famous beagle]

Hey y'all, I need someone (Reel Person or Sweetbeats maybe) to tell me what this switch is for on my 424 MKiii. I've read the manual, but when I mess the switch, I can't really see what the purpose of it is. I do understand the use of the "Effect 2/cue" switch, but I can't see the reason for the "Effect 1" or "off" option.

Hopefully this picture gives you a good enough view of what's going on.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

It looks like a simple monitor assignment switch.

So if you built up two different cue mixes, you could listen to either one or turn it off and listen to the main stereo/mono mix instead.

Cheers!

 

[famous beagle]

It looks like a simple monitor assignment switch.

So if you built up two different cue mixes, you could listen to either one or turn it off and listen to the main stereo/mono mix instead.

Cheers!

Well that's the thing. There aren't two different cue mixes on this machine. There's only one cue mix. The Effects 2 send also acts as a cue mix, but Effects 1 only acts as an effects send.

I guess you could use Effects 1 as a cue mix if you sent the signals to another set of monitor speakers, but here's the thing:

Both effects sends are post-fader. So ... you can't hear anything that's routed to Effects 1 if the fader is down. (You can with Effects 2, if you have the Effects 2/Cue switch set to Cue, but not Effects 1.)

So, my point is that, in order to hear anything routed to effects 1, you have to have the fader up, and if you have the fader up, then ....

Hold on, I'm getting confused and losing my train of thought. I need to go do a few experiments and see if I can figure it out.

Thanks for the response!

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Though the effects send 1 may rely on the faders being up, it still gives you the opportunity to fine tune the levels or remove channels that you don't want to hear. I agree its a bit convoluted but it is a Portastudio, not a $400,000 SSL console!

Cheers!

 

[sweetbeats]

The EFF 1 and EFF 2 switches in the monitor section route those busses to the monitor buss to, uh, monitor them (hear what is present at those output jacks).

EFF 1 and EFF 2 are traditional effect sends in that they are, indeed, post-fader.

The EFF 2 buss is switcheable pre or post-fader though. The pre-fade setting is the CUE setting. Think of it as a monitor send who's source is the tape track (channel 1 = track 1, etc.).

So, the EFF switches in the monitor section allow you to hear what's being routed to those busses. If EFF 2 is switched to the pre-fade CUE setting that's how you monitor the cue mix.

Hope that helps.

SSL console, no, but very effective design for a 4-track Portastudio...I think the 424mkII/mkIII decks have one of the best mixing sections of any Tascam cassette 4-track (when you consider the I/O connections...exclude the 644 from...it is tops...though the 246 is awesome too...and...the 244...um...nevermind)

 

[famous beagle]

The EFF 1 and EFF 2 switches in the monitor section route those busses to the monitor buss to, uh, monitor them (hear what is present at those output jacks).

EFF 1 and EFF 2 are traditional effect sends in that they are, indeed, post-fader.

The EFF 2 buss is switcheable pre or post-fader though. The pre-fade setting is the CUE setting. Think of it as a monitor send who's source is the tape track (channel 1 = track 1, etc.).

So, the EFF switches in the monitor section allow you to hear what's being routed to those busses. If EFF 2 is switched to the pre-fade CUE setting that's how you monitor the cue mix.

Hope that helps.

SSL console, no, but very effective design for a 4-track Portastudio...I think the 424mkII/mkIII decks have one of the best mixing sections of any Tascam cassette 4-track (when you consider the I/O connections...exclude the 644 from...it is tops...though the 246 is awesome too...and...the 244...um...nevermind)

Thanks for the detailed response! But I still don't understand what the EFF 1 option does. I did a test last night, and this is what I found out:

When I had all four channels' track assign switches set to OFF, the monitor switch set to EFF 1, and the EFF 1 send knobs turned up on channels 1-4, I wouldn't hear anything at all.

When I switched the channels' track assign switches to TAPE and left everything else the same, I would only hear a track if I turned up the fader.

In other words, it doesn't seem to matter whether a channel's EFF 1 SEND knob is turned up or not. If the fader's not up, I don't hear the track. And if another track's fader is up but its EFF 1 SEND knob is not turned up, I still hear the track.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand how to set the machine so that the EFF 1 monitor select switch makes any difference at all.

 

[sweetbeats]

EFFECT 1 can only get stuff post-fader. If the channel strip is OFF, nothing goes to the fader, right? Therefore nothing can get to EFFECT 1. If the strip is set to MIC/LINE then that is what is available to EFFECT 1. If the strip is set to TAPE then that respective track is available to EFFECT 1.

EFFECT 2 is exactly the same.

NOW...if you switch the EFFECT 2/CUE switch to CUE then the EFFECT 2/CUE knobs on channels 1~4 have the respective tape track available to them REGARDLESS OF THE SETTING OF THE CHANNEL INPUT SOURCE SWITCH OR THE FADER. It is a direct patch to the tape track that doesn't care about anything else.

As far as still being able to hear the track even if the EFFECT knob is down but the fader is up, you'll hear what's coming off the fader if the R MON or L MON switches are to the right. If you want to JUST hear what is in an EFFECT buss then you ONLY want to have THAT EFFECT monitor switch to the right.

Do you have a manual? There's a pretty good diagram of the signal flow in there...you can visually see what gets what from where and where it goes from there.

 

[famous beagle]

EFFECT 1 can only get stuff post-fader. If the channel strip is OFF, nothing goes to the fader, right? Therefore nothing can get to EFFECT 1. If the strip is set to MIC/LINE then that is what is available to EFFECT 1. If the strip is set to TAPE then that respective track is available to EFFECT 1.

EFFECT 2 is exactly the same.

NOW...if you switch the EFFECT 2/CUE switch to CUE then the EFFECT 2/CUE knobs on channels 1~4 have the respective tape track available to them REGARDLESS OF THE SETTING OF THE CHANNEL INPUT SOURCE SWITCH OR THE FADER. It is a direct patch to the tape track that doesn't care about anything else.

As far as still being able to hear the track even if the EFFECT knob is down but the fader is up, you'll hear what's coming off the fader if the R MON or L MON switches are to the right. If you want to JUST hear what is in an EFFECT buss then you ONLY want to have THAT EFFECT monitor switch to the right.

Do you have a manual? There's a pretty good diagram of the signal flow in there...you can visually see what gets what from where and where it goes from there.

I really appreciate your thoroughness on this. Yes I have the manual, and I've read it cover to cover.

With regards to EFF 2, I totally get it. There's no confusion there. I understand that switching to CUE creates basically a 1x4 mixer that's controlled by the EFF 2 knobs.

But I still don't see the reasoning for the EFF 1 option in the monitor select switch. Regardless of what I try, I can't seem to get it to where I can only hear what's going to EFF 1.

Nor can I see why you'd need that, to be honest.

So I guess I don't really feel like I'm missing out on anything, because I've never have to use it before. But I'm just a perfectionist and like to know my equipment inside and out, and I can't figure this one out.

Again, it's only the EFF 1 option (and the "OFF" option actually) on the monitor select switch that don't understand -- the one I've singled out in the picture. I understand the EFF 2/CUE option.

 

[sweetbeats]

I totally get your need to know/understand.

Why to have an EFFECT 1 monitor option:

Yes, it is post fader and so the EFFECT 1 buss mix will ultimately depend on the positions of the channel 1~4 faders, BUT it IS a separate mix...you could have channel 1~4 faders all in the shaded area, but EFFECT 1 knobs turned up on only channels 1 and 4. Would the mix at the EFFECT 1 out jack sound different than at the monitor out jacks (which source the channel faders which are all in the shaded area)? Yes. And to isolate and hear what is coming out of that EFFECT 1 jack you would slide the L MON, R MON and EFFECT 2/CUE switches to the left, and the EFFECT 1 switch to the right. Yeah, that EFFECT 1 mix is slave to the channel faders, but it is still handy to be able to single out that EFFECT mix so you can hear what is going to your reverb tank, delay box, multi-effects processor (or whatever). Every Tascam mixer I've owned has the ability to monitor effect/monitor/aux sends in the monitor section and that's what that EFFECT 1 --> switch does.

The OFF position on the input select toggle is really handy. Think of it as a channel MUTE function.

What other mixers or Portastudios are you familiar with? The 414 for sure right? original version or mkII?

 

[famous beagle]

I was actually talking about the OFF switch in the monitor select portion (in the red squared section of my picture) --- not the input portion. I understand about the OFF for each channel.

Ok, I'm going to try to set everything like you said and see if I can hear the difference. I just haven't been able to hear the difference yet when using the EFF 1 option.

Thanks a lot for your responses, Cory. I'm familiar with the 414 mostly, although I did have an old Porta One for a time as well. I don't remember having this issue with the 414 (original BTW), but looking at a picture, I can see that it had these options too. I guess I just didn't bother with it.

I cut my teeth in the late 80s on a Fostex X-26, but that was my first four track, and I was too busy with learning the basics of multi-tracking to learn about specific monitor mixes.

This is really the first time that I've gotten very serious about cassette 4-tracking. After hearing the results I got on the 414 with "Eyes on Fire" (and the fun we had doing it), I realized that I wanted to learn everything I could about these machines so I can get the most use/best sound out of them possible. We've (the HouseCats -- the duo of my wife and me) decided to make all of our recordings on this format.

 

[sweetbeats]

Oh...I sort of owe you an apology...For some dumb reason I thought you were working with a mkII 424 not a mkIII...

Just now was the first time I've been able to view this thread on a regular PC...been using my Windows Mobile device and the pictures in post #1 are tiny...

The mkII monitor select switches don't have positions labeled as "OFF"...that's where I was confused and then confusing you.

Okay...right...think of the OFF positions in the monitor section ust like the OFF positions on the channel strip. Its like a mute. If you JUST want to monitor the stereo mix then you'd have the EFF1-EFF2/CUE switch in the OFF position and the one above it set to L-R or MONO (the L-R sum). To isolate the EFF1 buss have the top switch set to OFF and the EFF1-EFF2/CUE switch set to EFF1.

Try playing back a project with all 4 tracks populated. Set each channel strip to TAPE. Raise all the faders 1~4 to the shaded area. Set the EFF1-EFF2/CUE switch to OFF, the LINE OUT monitor switch to L-R. Setup a basic mix. Rotate all the EFF1 knobs fully counter-clockwise. Now set the LINE OUT switch to OFF and set the EFF1-EFF2/CUE switch to EFF1. You should hear...nothing. Now start turning EFF1 knobs. Notice that at any point you can set the EFF1-EFF2/CUE switch to OFF and set the LINE OUT switch to L-R and your original mix is still there.

If ever you DID need to use the EFF1 buss as a cue feed/monitor mix for talent then being able to monitor it independently is pretty important: since it is post fader changes you make to the main mix will mess with the EFF1 mix, but being able to monitor it as you make changes to the main mix allows you to readjust the EFF1 mix and save you the headache of having the talent complain that "something seems different."

I hope this helps. Don't hesitate to keep asking. No such thing as a dumb question especially from somebody that has done wonderful stuff on that format. I applaud you for your choice to stay focused on a known format and to explore it further too. You and your wife are, IMO, a credit to the cassette 4-track. Great stuff. Keep it up.

 

[famous beagle]

Thanks for the kind words, Cory.

I was just wondering one more thing. In this picture, you see the suggested system to be used with the 424. I was just wondering what most people used to monitor the signal from the 2-track recorder (in the top right of this picture).

A separate power amp and speakers?

Run it into a bigger mixer to which the 424's monitor speakers are also connected?

Any other scenarios?

Just curious to see how most people have it set up.

Thanks