a question for Michael Jones

[mixmkr]

I have a question, but I don't want to be too personal, and if this thread sinks to the bottom of the pile, that's ok too.

After admiring your constuction pictures, I can only count $$$ and have to imagine that a chunk of change is being spent. I think you have had some threads in the past about studio budgeting, and the like, but I wasn't able to really easily find them, nor have the interest to go really look them up anyway.

First off, you impress me as the kind of person that financially is doing "ok" without the music even being involved. In one of your construction pics, you get a "sneak" of a the edge of a building which I am assuming is probably your house. It "appears" to be the tiny corner of your house, BUT, it gives the impression TO ME that it is a corner attached to a pretty nice house. You also dropped some serious coin-age on an upright and you "old" studio DOES look immaculately clean, tidy and has a very NICE look to it...if you know what I mean. Maybe not in dollars invested in equipment, but it doesn't look like a room you would see in someones basement, typically either.

which leads me back to your studio you are building. It looks and sounds (from your posts) that you do not want to cut costs just to save a little bit here and there. You are doing some "major" construction, and building something nice. It looks very impressive, even at this stage of construction. However, you also seem pointed in being a facility to be open for public business.

My question...with this kind of overhead, WITH ME DOING THE FIGURES, I can't see how something like this can pay for itself. Do you think it will or have hopes to? It seems EVEN if you book 40 hours a week at a $75/hr rate...(which is pretty steep for studio costs UNLESS you have some SERIOUS equipment) you still won't come out on top. I realize booking time may not be the only income source of this project either. But at 40 hours a week, you'd would be forfeiting any other time for current income that may be occuring elsewheres.. and $3000/month doesn't seem like it would cover construction costs, equipment, salaries, and a cushion to upgrade in the future also, not to mention utlilties, etc. It makes renting/leasing look much more attractive. But I guess there is appreciation involved with your structure too...if that can be applied.

Not to be nosey, but it has me wondering, because I have always done my personal studio stuff out of the house myself, with basically no added overhead, and was much of the time, pretty much cash on the barrel head....something that did make some change. This, and on the side of also free lancing at other places. There are a lot other people that frequent around here that are probably somewhat in the same catagory...and a couple that have also spent some bucks on their "setup" only to charge, what I would call low rates to cover costs.

So wadda ya think? In this tough day for studio owners to even survive at this level, is this more for yourself (like waaaay first), or do you really have plans for "giving it a go?"

And...I wish you the best in success should your plans be the 2nd in the above sentence.

and...after re-reading all my above post...I realize that sporting a $100,000 loan isn't all that costly...especially in a 25 or 30 year note. And, people spend more on other leisure items all the time...

It's just got me wondering... stocks...investments...gold market!! no..just kidding...but if you "could" be making $75,000/yr at a current job, it won't happen with this...it has to be a "love"

 

[Michael Jones]

After admiring your constuction pictures, I can only count $$$ and have to imagine that a chunk of change is being spent.

I have a budget of around $55,000 for construction costs, and some additional monies ear-marked for additional equipment and upgrades. I'm acting as the general contractor, and doing everything I can myself, otherwise, to hire a contractor, and have him give me a "turn key" facility, I'd be looking at double to triple that.

First off, you impress me as the kind of person that financially is doing "ok" without the music even being involved.

Well, I started off in college as a music major! But, I like to eat and have money for things like electricity and phone, so I switched after 2 1/2 years. Today I'm a professional civil engineer. I was once a major share holder/partner in a medium to large engineering firm. It started off, just me another guy, scrounging for work.
After nearly 10 years of working my butt off to help grow the company to around 40 employees, I decided that 60-70 hour work weeks were not what I wanted out of life. So I sold my interest in the company, and invested the dividends. (Mostly "Blue Chip" stocks and a few worth while but risky dot com's) I sort of anticipated the 90's bubble bursting, and re-arranged my portfolio to...less risky investments about a year and a half before the 2000 elections.
To date, I have my retirement and kids college funds pretty much taken care of. I still work as a professional engineer, and my wife is successful in her chosen profession as well. (Lucky me!)

In one of your construction pics, you get a "sneak" of a the edge of a building which I am assuming is probably your house. It "appears" to be the tiny corner of your house, BUT, it gives the impression TO ME that it is a corner attached to a pretty nice house.

Yeah, thats my house. What you see in the photo is the "Breakfeast nook" that sort of juts out from the rest of the house. The house is... OK, I guess, its pretty nice and all, but what sold me on it was the property. A little over a tree covered half acre in a subdivision where everyone has that size or larger lot. So you don't look out of your dinning room window into your neighboors bathroom. (like so many developments I see today)
Plus the fact that it backs up to a 600 acre protected greenbelt added to its appeal.
Also, we bought this house at a time when it was truly a buyer's market. (Buy low, Sell HIGH!) I say bought, we actually had it built.

You also dropped some serious coin-age on an upright and you "old" studio DOES look immaculately clean, tidy and has a very NICE look to it...if you know what I mean. Maybe not in dollars invested in equipment, but it doesn't look like a room you would see in someones basement, typically either.

Yeah, the Boston Grand was expensive. But you know, my creedo in life is : "You only live once, get what you want!"
The "studio" is actually what would be a "game room" or "home theater" in most houses like this one.

which leads me back to your studio you are building. It looks and sounds (from your posts) that you do not want to cut costs just to save a little bit here and there. You are doing some "major" construction, and building something nice. It looks very impressive, even at this stage of construction. However, you also seem pointed in being a facility to be open for public business.

Well, thank you mix. Sometimes, I think about ways to cut down on the construction costs, like, say..... maybe I could use R39 insulation instead of rockwool... or do I really need a triple leaf wall system on the inside.... or you know, maybe the solid platinum and diamond encrusted toilet levers ARE a bit over the top!, things like that. But when it comes right down to it, its not that big of a savings, and if in the end your final outcome is something that doesn't work, then you've wasted money and not saved it.
So, I'm still on budget, and I'm sticking to the original design.

As far as being open to the public, that's definately part of the business plan. (Don't forget, I ran a successful business for 10 years.) One thing I did before starting this endevour was to research a lot of studios in my area. Most of them are $20 - $30 an hour studios and their facilities are... some guy in a room. I'm not saying that someone like that can't deliver a good product, but someone with a proper facility could deliver a better product. And over time, word's going to get out.
I have done business plans, and break even analyses on this ad nauseum and for the first 2 years, if I can book 20 hrs per week at $45 per hour, I can cover expenses and turn a (very) small profit. And, that's JUST TO BREAK EVEN!
But lets face reality: I'd have to book that EACH and EVERY week, for 2 YEARS for that to happen. AND at the end of 2 years, or sooner, I'd have to raise my rates. I don't think my facility will be in the $75/hr range, but possibly in the $55 - $60/hr range. That's about the upper limit of being competitive in this town. Any more than that, like the $75/hr range you suggest or higher and you're looking at near world class facilities, not to mention that you've priced yourself out of your target market.

So what's an aspiring entrepenure to do? Well, you diversify. Target different markets. Branch out.
There's definately an abundance of gigging bands in Austin, and they'd all love to record their music. But these are the same people that.... serve us our lunch during the day so they can entertain us later that evening at our favorite watering hole.
Many of them simply don't have the resources to record at a $60/hr facility, so you give those people a break on rates.
Now, Mrs. Soccer Mom, who has her kid enrolled in piano lessons and would like to have a CD of her precious darling pounding out fur elise CAN afford those rates. So targeting that market as well makes sense. There's also many people, like me, who work their day jobs in AE and can also afford the higher rate.
Don't forget schools. Schools have bands. Bands mean musicians. When I played H.S. band, some guy came in every year, set up equipment, and recorded us. EVERYONE in the band bought at least ONE cassette tape. I'd like to be that guy.... someday.
I've also had some marginal success doing film scores for local film makers and film production companies. I've made great contacts with several advertising firms that buy and use original music in their ads. There's a ton of kareoke (sp) singers that would be willing to spend half a day in the studio making a CD of their vocal stylings. There's lots of markets to target besides the starving rock band.


I guess in the grand scheme of things, I'd like to derive a full-time income from this, but I know its going to take years to get to that point. And right now, I don't have to rely on the studio for that income. I want to build a reputation of quality, and fairness first.

 

[mixmkr]

two things... first I meant "grand" where I said 'upright' in describing your Boston...

2nd... all I can say is go get 'em man...and wow..

I'm sure I might have more questions and junk to say, as I find this VERY interesting....but for now, I just appreciate that you shared the info that you did. Thank you very much.

 

[knightfly]

Michael, your general "plan of attack" sounds very similar to the one I've eventually worked out, except you're 'way ahead of me in the construction dept -

I do hope you meant "triple LAYER" instead of "triple LEAF", though... :=) (yeah, I know, friggen' semanticists...

 

[Michael Jones]

...I do hope you meant "triple LAYER" instead of "triple LEAF", though... :=) (yeah, I know, friggen' semanticists...

You know, as I was typing that, I thought: "Man, if I didn't get that right, Steve'll be in here giving me a ration for it!"

Didn't we discuss this too, over at John's forum? I think we decided there that I'll never get it right!

 

[John Sayers]

Great reply Michael -
I find people tend to talk in days, not hours. You book the studio for a day rate over so many days, then it becomes a deal to finish the album etc. There's a lot of give and take (haggling) in this biz.

The thing to avoid is spending all your time recording people whoes music you don't like just to pay the overhead.

cheers
john

 

[Michael Jones]

Great reply Michael -
I find people tend to talk in days, not hours. You book the studio for a day rate over so many days, then it becomes a deal to finish the album etc. There's a lot of give and take (haggling) in this biz.

The thing to avoid is spending all your time recording people whoes music you don't like just to pay the overhead.

cheers
john

I've noticed that John, in my research, that booking time in a studio is generally done in day rates. It's just easier for me to think in hourly rates.
On your second point, about recording music you don't like, I hear you loud and clear!
If I had to record "The Screaming Meme's day after day(guys that scream instead of sing, and have their guitars tuned down to Bb so they can play overly distorted barre chords) .... I'd be in hell!

 

[frederic]

The thing to avoid is spending all your time recording people whoes music you don't like just to pay the overhead.

John, thats it - right on the money with that comment!

 

[frederic]

I guess in the grand scheme of things, I'd like to derive a full-time income from this, but I know its going to take years to get to that point. And right now, I don't have to rely on the studio for that income. I want to build a reputation of quality, and fairness first.

Good things to strive for, absolutely.

I may have mentioned this way back when, but maybe this idea will help you. I found that tuesdays were generally "slow" all year round, but January was consistantly slow except on weekends, so throughout December I ran a "Karaoke Special" for $250, included a "pampered" day in a professional recording studio, where one would purchase a gift certificate for someone else (or themselves), wrap it up for Xmas, and send their loved one to me in January. For $250, they got to record 8-10 songs from my vast midi library, and record their vocals on top of that. I'd use bulk-erased used tape on one of the Otari's, and it was good enough to make everyone happy. Once the songs were recorded, I'd spend the next morning or two mixing, then mastering it, then having one of my guys dupe it up to 10 cassette copies. I also used this as a training experience for staff interested in more than setting up guitar amps and giving change, and sometimes visits from local high school students (sponsored by the school, like a field trip, i.e. free advertising ) if they wanted to cover recording and such.

Then late morning, early afternoon the next person would come in, and we'd restart the whole process. I'd zap them off 10 copies, we snapped photographs of the "artists" using a disposable camera with a letterboard above their head against a white wall with their name, then use a papercutter to shape the developed photos into a cassette shell when developed.

While $250 is not a lot of money for what was involved, it was by far better than paying staff to sit around, and honestly, it was kinda fun too.

I got two garage bands as clients from the first year karaoke specials... both the lead singers were given a "day" and after the end results, they both brought in their bands for a few days to "lay some tape".

It wasn't exactly the most profitable marketing thing I tried, but I was able to keep staff paid and the lights on during a normally dismal month.

 

[John Sayers]

Karaoke Special - cool idea.

On a grander scale I reckon someone should find a beautiful spot in the mountains/desert whatever and offer a weekend recording deal. You line up a team of really good musos and the client gets to spend the days in the studio with the musos who play whatever the client wants. You lay on good food and fancy rooms with spas etc $4,000 for the weekend - chicken feed to some of the flash city folks

cheers
john

 

[mixmkr]

The thing to avoid is spending all your time recording people who's music you don't like just to pay the overhead.

I think that was my downfall many years ago as I worked for a booking agent that also ran a small 1" 8track studio. We got quite a bit of work from all the bands that he booked, and he also brought in bands on HIS nickle so he could play producer and try and "make a hit". The bands basically just had to pay me...their studio time was free, except for my wages. I made like $15/hr back then(versus $30 for our normal rate)....so it was cheap for the bands...and in the early 80's, that pay was pretty ok with me too. I liked those sessions a lot, as the pressure of the clock was basically not there, and we experimented a lot and made sure the tracks were done right. We had A LOT OF FUN.

However, the demo bands and the slew of just rotten gospel bands that just wanted to record to 1/2 track and press 1000 albums, etc...just got to be too much. The talent almost was ALWAYS really bad, and you had to make them sound great, or you weren't "doing your job." Basically, I did allright with getting clean tracks, but the music was just terrible. It really started to make me NOT want to go do sessions. And..the ratio of these session became more than the 'fun' sessions. Now that I've taken a spell from being a professional engineer, I like it much more. I started back in with my own studio, picked my clients, and since the overhead was zero (as it was in my house now), I made some decent money here and there. Not enough to live on..but I didn't want to have my house overrun with people either. A couple of sessions a month was MORE than enough. Nowadays, I don't do many at all. I really like doing my own stuff best.

However...the LURE of building a studio so that I could keep people out of my house and get some paying sessions is starting to get appealing again. I have since moved to Kentucky, and the Christian music scene is just going bonkers around here. And it appears the talent is also there too. I have the space (I have an 1 1/2 acres) and building something along the scale of what Michael Jones is doing would be fun......I think..... hhhhmmm .. maybe not as big....around the $30,000. I just finished building a workshop of 16 x 30, and with the siding, insulated paneled interior, shingles, all framing, roofing...electrical...total...I only spent about 5 grand. It's a nice building actually. no plumbing, however. ..and I did ALL the work. That convinced me I can do it, and that $30,000 would get me a pretty nice setup. That translates to $200/month for me, and I know I could get sessions to cover that. Then, I would have a nicer studio than I have now, and have the capabilty to make a tad more money...and KEEP the FRIGGIN people out of the house.

oh well.... that's 1 plan...

again thanks, Michael...(sorry for the life story! ..ha!)

you know...one other area I made $$ at was being a "project coordinator".. Like those ladies{that you alluded to Michael} who want to record their daughter, etc... they don't have a clue, unlike your local demo bands, where to get CD's pressed, artwork...and all that stuff.. That's where you can markup stuff pretty healthy and make a little extra dough too.

 

[frederic]

Karaoke Special - cool idea.

Thanks! As I said it wasn't really a profitable thing, but it kept me afloat long enough to get into February where business would pick up.

On a grander scale I reckon someone should find a beautiful spot in the mountains/desert whatever and offer a

THAT is a really good idea...

I used to work for a tiny consulting company (tiny as in three employees, including me) that offered cobol development tool seminars in aruba for one week. 4 hours of seminars every day, the rest of the day, well, was your own. Golf, tennis, beach, was a very profitable thing for this tiny company.

I kept suggesting they took me, but they never did. *sigh*

I really like the vacation/resort idea for recording, thats an excellent idea.

 

[mixmkr]

I really like the vacation/resort idea for recording, thats an excellent idea.

It's called Long View Farms...up north of Boston, in Brookfield Mass.

in the 80's they were only about 10grand/week... but FULLY catered....from horseback riding to the fresh oysters for dinner in the dining room...complete with chef, etc. ...not to mention live in facilties, of course.

They are still going strong, as I understand....and have survived a long career of over 25 years I would guess.

 

[mixmkr]

I really like the vacation/resort idea for recording, thats an excellent idea.

oh...did I tell you the one[idea I had] about the studio on a sailboat???

man...it's fun to think fun dreams...

 

[frederic]

oh...did I tell you the one[idea I had] about the studio on a sailboat???

man...it's fun to think fun dreams...

That would so not be for me (seasick), but its clever, very clever. Dreaming is good, this is how all good ideas (and bad ones too) come to fruition. (yes, you may call me captain obvious )

Well, back to figuring out the ridge vents and stringers.

 

[Michael Jones]

...However...the LURE of building a studio so that I could keep people out of my house and get some paying sessions is starting to get appealing again."

Yeah, see that was a big consideration for me to build a separate building.
First of all, there's no way you could get a 4 piece band in this room, and secondly, I really don't want 4 muso's draggin' ass and equipment through my house.

Pedernales Studios has the resort thing wraped here in Austin.
Pedernales Studio is located by Lake Travis on a game preserve 30 miles west of Austin in the Hill Country. Once Pedernales Country Club, the property was purchased by Willie Nelson and converted into a recording studio in the mid 70s. It was most recently remodeled and re-equipped in the mid 90s.
Pedernales Studio includes a 9-hole golf course, tennis courts, and an Olympic size swimming pool. The clubhouse was converted into a state of the art recording studio, featuring an SSL G+ console, interfaced with a vintage 80 series Neve console.

Great idea though, if you can get the clientiel.


Mix - I KNOW you could do something like that for 30g's. The single most costly item in construction for me was the foundation. It was $7500. My building is 30' wide x 40' long, and across the 40' span the existing grade drops 3 1/2'. So at the rear of the studio, there's an exposed grade beam. Without that drop, the foundation would have been less that $5000.

My loan was for $65,000 and its a little over $400/mo. Less than a car payment. Utilities will average to around $250/mo. (more in summer, less in winter) I'd like to spend about $350/mo. in advertising starting out, and adjust that as necessary as time goes by. Then if I'm able to lower the advertising costs, put that money towards upgrades and new equipment.
So, outside of a few odds and ends, the bulk of my monthly overhead is under $1000/mo.
There's NO WAY you could lease 1200 sq. ft. for less than $1/ft per month here in Austin.
Plus I get the equity out of the building; leasing is money down the drain as far as I'm concerned.

 

[John Sayers]

It's called Long View Farms...up north of Boston, in Brookfield Mass.

in the 80's they were only about 10grand/week... but FULLY catered....from horseback riding to the fresh oysters for dinner in the dining room...complete with chef, etc. ...not to mention live in facilties, of course.

They are still going strong, as I understand....and have survived a long career of over 25 years I would guess.

I worked at Music farm in the late 70s which was that kind of setup - full chef and horse riding etc. BUt it was a serious studio with major acts who could afford it. It finally closed last year and now some international pianist lives in it The studio is on the right in this photo and the accom on the left.

My idea is more about someone with a nice home studio that could hire it out only for weekends. It would give the local musos some regular work and keep you afloat as well. The appeal for the client is to perform with shit hot musos

cheers
john

 

[TexRoadkill]

After 15yrs of on and off music/video work I have come to one conclusion. The ONLY way to make money is to do corporate work of some sort. Whether it's industrials, commercials, trade shows, whatever.

The corporate companies I've worked for made more net profit renting out a projector, screen, small PA then most small companies make doing an entire mid size rock show with full lights and PA.

A typical 3 day commercial shoot was higher budgeted than most 2 week indie movie shoots.

I would think as a recording studio the only way to really make money is to get some corporate VO and music scoring gigs. Then the rock bands can fill in the extra time. Without the corporate gigs I doubt any studio can even break even.

 

[barefoot]

....The ONLY way to make money is to do corporate work of some sort. Whether it's industrials, commercials, trade shows, whatever....

Some might think this sounds lame, but speaking for all of us with day jobs in big corporations - anything..... ANYTHING... that helps improve the quality of corporate productions is a wholly just and noble cause.

I've seen more mind numbingly boring training videos with the worst possible canned casio synthesizer music than any human should endure!

Help! Somebody please.... Help!

Thomas

http://barefootsound.com

 

[John Sayers]

From my experience a rational way of adding income to a studio is to become the Producer!

Find a band in your town that is about to break - i.e. the street talk is that this band is about to become famous. Go and sign them up and use your downtime to record them with no time limits etc etc. and no cost to them. You may have to front the money for tape, hiring additional gear if necessary , whatever but with a completed album under your belt you should be able to either sell or lease it to a major?? If you really want to make the most of it you should also sign up their publishing to your own publishing company.

cheers
john