A perfect circle

[ecktronic]

This thread is for anyone who has heard of or likes the band A perfect circle.
Just wondering what yous think of the production of their albums. I personally think that some of the songs are really well produced while others are mediocre. The drums are what catch my attention as being fekin brilliant. Specially on "The Noose" from the album "13th step". They had to be sampled (kik drum mostly) drums when they first kik in properly, but then when the song kiks into the heavy bit i think the kik drum is real then.

It is the guitarist Billy that produced the albums but not too sure what this actually means as it was mixed and mastered by different people.

 

[bennychico11]

yeah, i'm a big fan of the earlier Perfect Circle albums. I think the engineers on them were amazing. Same thing with Maynard's other albums with Tool. According to allmusic.com Thirteenth Step was: "Produced by Howerdel and mixed by the inimitable Andy Wallace"

What it means is probably Howerdel set everything up and maybe recorded the songs (although, my guess it there might have been another engineer in the room overseeing it all. Happens a lot with hip hop too...Puff Daddy may be seen on his MTV shows with all that kick ass gear, but usually if you look in the background there's some white engineer workin' on the console. A producer, IMO, is just a glorified band director who may or may not be business savvy).

On the Noose song, they probably bussed the drums to another track and used a filter on it, and then removed it when the song really kicked in. I doubt they sampled anything. Another good song for the drums is The Package. Two of my favorite songs ever by APC are 3 Libras and Vanishing. Both are amazing songs compositionally as well as sonically.

Don't know if you're a Tool fan either, but for some good drum sounds look at "Ticks and Leeches" and "The Grudge". Totally different engineers on those, but still kick ass sounding. It seems almost everything Maynard touches just turns to gold! (although the latest APC album wasn't their best...still some good songs on it though). I can't wait to hear the new Tool album that's supposed to come out next year, I believe.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

A producer, IMO, is just a glorified band director

Tell that to George Martin, Phil Spector, Alan Parsons, T-Bone Burnett or Phil Ramone.

G.

 

[ecktronic]

I aint really into Tool although i did get a lone of three albums of songs of Tool just recently. I like some of the songs on Enima and Salival.
What kind of filter would be used to acheive this drum sound on the Noose?
Im still pretty sure it must have been a few well hit kick drum samples all Eqd seperatley as samples then exchanged with the original kick drum recording so as to ensure natural timing of playing. Couls be wrong though. Another great drum sound is from Deftones. Awsome huge sound.

 

[ecktronic]

I have thought about this for a while now and was wondering if it would be so silly as to think this. Could it be possible that the kik and maybe also the snare were recorded at a slightly faster tempo and then time compressed slightly to give a deeper longer resonating sound? Is that ludicrous to think or is it worth a try?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'd think that recording just a part of the drum kit at a faster tempo would probably cause more headaches than solutions. However, give it a try anyway.

It's never silly to think and rarely silly to expiriment (safely). Who knows what you'll come up with. Even if it's not what you expected, it could be something even better.

That said, though, is it also possible that the longer resonating sound is simply the effect of compression amplifying and lengthining the audible portion of the decay?

G.

 

[giraffe]

I have thought about this for a while now and was wondering if it would be so silly as to think this. Could it be possible that the kik and maybe also the snare were recorded at a slightly faster tempo and then time compressed slightly to give a deeper longer resonating sound? Is that ludicrous to think or is it worth a try?

no

 

[bennychico11]

it's possible but listening to it right now i'm 99.9% sure that they aren't samples. listen closely to how he plays...especially the snare. he does little snare rolls on the snare as pickups to some of the measures/beats. None of the hits on the snare or even the kick sound the same to me. Plus, if i had his talent as a drummer...i wouldn't let any engineer sample me and say "we're gonna use this computer to replicate you." I'd say, "Fuck that...i'll play it."

What makes you think the drums are sampled?? The filter they used, I have no clue. You'll have to ask the engineer on that...but he just EQ'd it that way to get the sound he wanted.

Tell that to George Martin, Phil Spector, Alan Parsons, T-Bone Burnett or Phil Ramone

There's no doubt those people have made it big and know what they're doing. I didn't mean that they didn't. But what do they do when you get down to it? Coach musicians into sounding better (aka a glorified band teacher....candy coat it all you want). And usually they know the business side of things so they deal with that too. But, IMO, people especially in the hip hop/rap community interchange the words engineer and producer all the time. I don't produce albums. I don't tell the artist what he should do to play better, why he should change the first verse to make it flow smoother, why the guitarist should choose a different solo, or why we should add the 3rd song's 2nd take to the album instead of the 4th take. I get paid to record and use the equipment. If the band asks me my opinion on stuff, I'll tell them...but I'm not gonna interrupt them and get involved with the art they are creating. That's what you hire a producer to do.

 

[giraffe]

i was tole that on the last tool album thare was a u87 on the top and bottom of each tom!!!!!!!!!!

you don't mic a kit like that for drumagog

 

[ecktronic]

I'd think that recording just a part of the drum kit at a faster tempo would probably cause more headaches than solutions. However, give it a try anyway.

It's never silly to think and rarely silly to expiriment (safely). Who knows what you'll come up with. Even if it's not what you expected, it could be something even better.

That said, though, is it also possible that the longer resonating sound is simply the effect of compression amplifying and lengthining the audible portion of the decay?

G.

Im talking about a fraction faster, like maybe 3 bpm faster and then stretching the kick to make it sound meatier . The kik could easily have been sampled. sampled kits dont have to sound fake and robotic. Use of dynamics and a number of samples can make sampled drums sound good. Not that i use sampled drums. I like to keep it real so to speak.
I suppose it could be just carefull selection of the right mic, and great sounding kick drum.

 

[giraffe]

I aint really into Tool although i did get a lone of three albums of songs of Tool just recently. I like some of the songs on Enima and Salival.
What kind of filter would be used to acheive this drum sound on the Noose?
Im still pretty sure it must have been a few well hit kick drum samples all Eqd seperatley as samples then exchanged with the original kick drum recording so as to ensure natural timing of playing. Couls be wrong though. Another great drum sound is from Deftones. Awsome huge sound.

answer to all tool/drum questions is

the drummer is probably the best rock drummer in the world at the moment
and is useing nothing less than the absolute best equipment money can buy
and is working with top notch engineers and producers.

except the filter, i'd have to go back and listen to it to see

 

[bennychico11]

answer to all tool/drum questions is

the drummer is probably the best rock drummer in the world at the moment
and is useing nothing less than the absolute best equipment money can buy
and is working with top notch engineers and producers.

except the filter, i'd have to go back and listen to it to see

well, the drummer on APC isn't the same drummer that's in Tool...but still he's amazing too.

again ecktronic...why do you think the drums are sampled? what immediately draws your attention to it and makes you think "oh, those are sampled"?

 

[chadsxe]

answer to all tool/drum questions is

the drummer is probably the best rock drummer in the world at the moment
and is useing nothing less than the absolute best equipment money can buy
and is working with top notch engineers and producers.

except the filter, i'd have to go back and listen to it to see

By no means the best drummer in the world, but by all means very good....

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

But what do [producers] do when you get down to it? Coach musicians into sounding better (aka a glorified band teacher....candy coat it all you want). And usually they know the business side of things so they deal with that too. But, IMO, people especially in the hip hop/rap community interchange the words engineer and producer all the time.

You are correct, that in many recording situations the tracking and or mixing engineer and the producer are one and the same person. And many times they do little more than "coach the band" and move a few sliders. This is as true in many genres of music as it is in hip hop. Much depends on the experience of the producer and the budget in which the production is made to work.

But to broad-stroke that and say that is all "producers do" is a disservice to may producers who do much more than that. Leaving aside the business end of it (to which I have no disagreements with you), many producers not only direct the band, but also design and direct the entire production. This can include some or all of the following tasks: assisting in-studio song arrangement, designing the "sound" of the production (e.g. you want a "Born in the USA" or a "Nebraska" production?), choosing the engineers and studios for the recording, mixing and mastering, directing the engineers ("we need more cowbells! ), selecting sit-in accompanient musicians, selecting track order on the final CD, etc.

To use a film making analogy, in such cases the producer acts more like a movie director and production designer whereas the engineer acts sorta like the director of photography.

Is it always like that? No. Should it always be like that? Absolutely not. But to say that it is always, or even usually, not like that is selling the job of many producers short.

OK, I'm through brown nosing to my producer associates and acquaintenances...

G.

 

[bennychico11]

You are correct, that in many recording situations the tracking and or mixing engineer and the producer are one and the same person. And many times they do little more than "coach the band" and move a few sliders. This is as true in many genres of music as it is in hip hop. Much depends on the experience of the producer and the budget in which the production is made to work.

But to broad-stroke that and say that is all "producers do" is a disservice to may producers who do much more than that. Leaving aside the business end of it (to which I have no disagreements with you), many producers not only direct the band, but also design and direct the entire production. This can include some or all of the following tasks: assisting in-studio song arrangement, designing the "sound" of the production (e.g. you want a "Born in the USA" or a "Nebraska" production?), choosing the engineers and studios for the recording, mixing and mastering, directing the engineers ("we need more cowbells! ), selecting sit-in accompanient musicians, selecting track order on the final CD, etc.

To use a film making analogy, in such cases the producer acts more like a movie director and production designer whereas the engineer acts sorta like the director of photography.

Is it always like that? No. Should it always be like that? Absolutely not. But to say that it is always, or even usually, not like that is selling the job of many producers short.

OK, I'm through brown nosing to my producer associates and acquaintenances...

G.

i agree on pretty much everything you said. i guess what my qualms are is I've run into so many young kids who aspire to get into the music business. When they attended school to learn about recording they had big dreams of becoming a producer and being the next Dr. Dre (yes, most of these kids were rap/hiphop listeners)....then after a few months of school they find out that a recording school is totally different than what they though. Learning about tape calibration, signal flow, and acoustics among other things...just wasn't what they had in mind when thinking of being a producer. So, that's really the issue I have is discerning between the two titles, producer and engineer. One who does both on a project because of budget issues is understandable...but I think when a lot of people are stating to think producers and engineers are one in the same. Maybe they should start labeling CDs now as "Produced and Engineered by So-and-So". It'd make me happy
anyway, APC rules and whoever engineered their first few albums whether it be the producer or whatever, did a great job.

 

[bblackwood]

Just wondering what yous think of the production of their albums.

The last one remiinded me how much I missed analog tape...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

i agree on pretty much everything you said. i guess what my qualms are is I've run into so many young kids who aspire to get into the music business. When they attended school to learn about recording they had big dreams of becoming a producer and being the next Dr. Dre (yes, most of these kids were rap/hiphop listeners)....then after a few months of school they find out that a recording school is totally different than what they though. Learning about tape calibration, signal flow, and acoustics among other things...just wasn't what they had in mind when thinking of being a producer. So, that's really the issue I have is discerning between the two titles, producer and engineer. One who does both on a project because of budget issues is understandable...but I think when a lot of people are stating to think producers and engineers are one in the same. Maybe they should start labeling CDs now as "Produced and Engineered by So-and-So". It'd make me happy .

Yeah, I think we are more in agreement than in disagreement on most points.

Your excellent description of what "would-be producers" experience when they do go to recording arts school I think actually emphasizes the distinction between the two jobs (note I said "jobs" and not "job titles".) In any audio production, there are many jobs (or tasks, if you will) that need to be performed. The more esoteric stuff like calibration, acoustic design, normaled vs. half-normaled patch bays, etc. have far more to do with the task of "engineering" than they do with the task of "production". That turns a lot of the young Dre's off.

Whether you have one person or ten people performing all the tasks other than the actual playing of the music, the fact remains that all the tasks - including the ones I listed earlier - do have to get done; they are part and parcel of the task. Either somebody does them or they may just happen by default. In productions where there is no seperate "producer", either somebody multitasks (be it the engineer or the artist) and takes on some of the production responsibility, or many facets of the production are just "let to happen" (e.g. no particular "sound" is actually aimed for, they just make the recordings and let the sound "happen" while mixing the tracks out to best effect.)

But in instances where a person takes responsibility for the role of "producer", and indeed addresses all the points and tasks I mentioned before and really works at it, the effect they have on the end result is at least as great as the effect that the musician or engineer has. Just try to imagine the "Sgt. Pepper" album without George Martin. I can't do it. I hear more of him on that album than I do the Beatles; and without his input, there is no way that album would ever be considered the seminal, paradigm-shifting album that it turned out to be. Granted that is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point nicely.

I also agree with you that if someone, whether it be the mixing engineer or the janitor, takes on the role of producer (i.e. he/she actively performs at least some of the important tasks of production), they should be credited as such on the liner notes, which hopefully would make you happy (I want only to make you happy ). If, however, the production tasks just kind of happen by default; i.e. the engineer and the janitor just do their engineerig and janitorial jobs by the book, and the resulting sound is just the resulting sound, then it *could* be argued - and I'm not sure I'm necessarily arguing this yet - that there was no producer and no one should receive "Producer" credit.

But I think no matter how you parse it, at this point in the discussion we have come a long way from saying that producers in general simply "coach the band."

G.

 

[EleKtriKaz]

The drums sound so good because Josh Freese is an absolutely insane, mad genius drummer. That guy can is flat out amazing.

My friends saw APC in concert and noticed that Josh's playing looked a little funny. They couldn't figured it out until Maynard told the crowd that he had broken his right ankle, so he was playing all kick and hi-hat with his left foot. Freakin' amazing.

 

[giraffe]

By no means the best drummer in the world, but by all means very good....

i'd say he's the best rock drummer out thare currently
(i'm sure thare's people i don't know though)

 

[darnold]

Yah Josh Freeze is absolutely a monster drummer. Ive actually heard hes a studio drummer for many bands.

Funny thing is too, i know that the first recording of APC were all done in the box.

at least thats what i heard about their first one.

danny